Reading Stephen’s Old Testament posts I found them interesting but tended to come back to how to think about certainty.  I started writing a comment but once I hit 500 words I figured it made more sense to just write a separate post.

Start with a general observation: the claim “in the field of x, there is no evidence for y” tends to conflate two claims, one much stronger than the other. The strong claim is that “we have a lot of evidence and we know a lot about things around x, so we can rule out y as true”. The weak claim is “we have huge amounts of missing information in the field of x, so we lack enough evidence to say that y is true because we have no idea”. Both of them, and many things in between, get read out as “there is no evidence for claim y.”

So when Stephen says “So let’s just repeat: it is widely accepted that there isn’t historical evidence for the events in the Pentateuch, especially the Exodus and Conquest. ” is this the strong claim or the weak claim? Or how much of each? For example, I am on board with the idea that the exact description of the Exodus, including exact dates, time spans, and number of people, may all be wrong, and since none of them are really crucial to the message I am fine with not knowing. I think if such an event occurred precisely as described, there is enough evidence of events in our current record that you’d expect more of it to be visible, so there is something getting close to the strong claim that the events exactly as described did not happen, even if we still have some pretty big gaps in archaeology. But can the extant record definitively rule out a smaller exodus of 3000 people (or whatever) at some point in a 500 year time span? I don’t know, but I am doubtful our knowledge is that good.

Next, there is the idea of something being “widely accepted” and how strong a piece of evidence that is. This is a straight up appeal to authority, which is fine as far as it goes, but crucially relies on how much we think the authorities know. Personally, I think biblical scholars know some things, but I suspect that many of them have some substantive biases and that, like most academic fields, there are some things they are happy to consider open questions and other things where they’ve all just sort of agreed on something even if the actual evidence for or against it is actually pretty weak.  And I fully expect that in the coming decades, the field will discover a rather large number of things to be true that it previously rejected.  So… while I am willing to accept their claims about narrow statements, I am super doubtful about claims as they come to span wider and wider areas.  If a Bible scholar says the root of a given word is probably x, I’ll go with it.  But I get real skeptical when it comes to really big claims, because I think a fair bit of group think is at play.

Lastly, one of the most important aspects of belief is how it may cause a change in our behavior.  if something requires more of me, then I am going to require a higher standard of proof. If you tell me that actually Ramses the great was not that great and most of what we know is myth, that is kind of interesting and may or may not be true, but has little implications for my world view and what God expects of me. The same is not nearly as true with knowing that Moses, in some form, existed as an actual prophet, so it makes sense to require a higher bar of evidence. A bar that is substantially higher than the current conflation offered by  “we have no evidence that …”


Comments

35 responses to “OT Epistemology”

  1. Stephen Fleming

    I see my series has been much more antagonistic than I meant it to be. That was clearly very naive on my part. To repeat, it was a product of two things: my own research on Joseph Smith that I’ve worked on a very long time and have a lot of expertise and some readings on biblical scholarship. Again my research on JS indicated to me that he believed there was truth among the Greeks that Bible writers/compilers (and Protestants) had suppressed and felt that he should restore (like the plan of salvation). So scholarly arguments indicating the important influence of Greek stuff on the NT seemed like a nice correlation. And if evidence indicated that lots of the OT, especially the Pentateuch, isn’t historical, then I thought, “that’s okay!”

    So I wanted to share a few thoughts since I’ve seen a number of Mormon and evangelical losing faith over biblical scholarship. “It doesn’t have to be that way!” is my opinion.

    But yes, I see I’ve said many things that many have found unwelcome.

  2. I wouldn’t necessarily say “antagonistic.” You got Frank to put up a post!

    But yeah, I think your approach could be more generalizable and feasible for more people if it avoided some unnecessary clobbering of red lines. I think you can make your point in most cases without it.

  3. Statistics has a notion of “power,” which is basically the smallest effect you can detect given your data. So if a drug trial fails to find a significant effect, a careful statistician will not say “Now we know your drug doesn’t work.” She may say “If your drug has any effect at all, it must be smaller than the size that the study was designed to detect.”

    It seems to me that something analogous applies to reconstructing the past. The experts are telling us they have enough “archeological power” to detect something like the exodus and the invasion of Canaan as described in the Old Testament. But they don’t have enough power to detect a much smaller and more peaceful exodus that then got wildly exaggerated. (It wouldn’t be the first time in ancient sources–see Herodotus’s account of the size of the Persian army that invaded Greece.) Now, if you’re going just by secular sources, Occam’s razor suggests dropping the exodus entirely. But if you’re willing to accept information from modern revelation, then a small exodus is, in my opinion, the preferred explanation.

    Or, to flip it around, while secular history and archeology can’t provide evidence that there was a Moses for Joseph Smith to see in the Kirtland temple, they can’t exclude the possibility–and believing things for which there is no solid secular evidence is part and parcel of living the gospel. No need for a faith crisis unless you’re wedded to the idea of an inerrant Bible, which Latter-Day Saints most definitely are not. But I’ll grant it’s unsettling to realize the errors are probably much bigger than we usually assume.

  4. Something that I find ironic (is this the proper use of ironic) is that I recently watched Sideproject’s YouTube video “Discoveries That Confirm Parts of the Bible”. One thing it points out is that there is part of the Nile marshland where occasionally the wind blows hard enough that it “drains” that part of the swamp. This is pretty unique to that part of the world. Pair that with Exodus saying that the wind blew all night, and it’s feasible that a strip of land that’s normally impassible became passible for one morning.
    So from a secular source I get “Hey, more probability that the events in the OT did happen (even if at a smaller scale than recorded)”, but from a spiritual source I’m reading, “There’s no evidence for events in the OT happening”.
    I’m finding all of this to be very fascinating.

  5. If Latter-day Saints believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly, does that allow for significantly inaccurate claims from the old testament? If Numbers claims millions of people in the Exodus, but the truth is a maximum of a few thousand, is that a translation error? If the walls of Jericho never fell, where does that leave the 8th article of faith?

  6. Joseph Smith used the term “translate” very loosely. A lot of ink has been spilled on this topic, but it seems to me he used it for everything that happened between “an ancient prophet gets inspiration” and “we read the Bible.”

    Given that he frequently talked about corruption in the Bible, specifically including changes to the text in the original language, he must have been including that in things that are not “translated” correctly. I think the things we’re talking about here would fit in that category as well.

  7. Stephen Fleming

    And all good points, Frank. I think you nicely lay out common ways that believers approach these kinds of topics. I do think DaveW also illustrates some of the faith concerns. And I like RLD suggesting approaching these topics and JS statements with some flexibility (“very loosely.”) For me, these points all add up to being okay with the possibility of the implications of what a lot of these scholars are suggesting. Can we be flexible on even the historicity of Moses? Even what JS said? Is it okay for JS to operate within his cultural/religious expectations?

  8. Thanks for the comments, all.

    RLD, yes the statistical power is the way I think about it too.

    DaveW, personally I think the OT’s approach to numbers is pretty loose, so that is one area where I tend to be very willing to believe errors occur. But note that I never said “a maximum of a few thousand” so if you are getting that from my post let me disavow that language :)

    Stephen, “Can we be flexible on even the historicity of Moses?”

    Do we need to be? As I wrote in my post, I am not even sure if you are making the strong or weak claim in these OT posts. If you are making the strong claim then I suspect you are wrong to have such confidence. If you are making the weak claim then there is not much to talk about unless one has inexplicably decided to predicate belief in Moses on affirmative confirmation by non-religious sources.

  9. Stephen Fleming

    I guess what do you mean by the “we” in “Do we need to be?” I’m happy for you and others to believe what you like, but the evidence is pretty strong so that leads people to the conclusions that I keep referring to my posts: the lack of historicity of the Pentateuch and concerns over faith. If you don’t feel that way, that’s fine, but others do have concern.

    So I’ll bring up my point again, “Can we be flexible on even the historicity of Moses?” based on the evidence?

  10. “but the evidence is pretty strong ” — so you’re making the strong claim.

    Well what do _you_ mean by we when you say “can we be flexible”?

    As far as can an individual believe such a thing and still be in good standing, I take the temple recommend questions as my guide and since I am not an ecclesiastical leader for anyone that’s good enough for me. Is that the flexibility you want?

    But if by “we” you mean “the church in its teachings and manuals” then I would guess “we” should not because there is no evidence refuting a historical Moses and we have multiple accounts of him from non-OT sources (Nephi, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in D&C 110, Mount of Transfiguration). So such flexibility is really asking, I take it, to be flexible on all of those sources as well. Seems like a bad idea to me and hardly likely to lead to a net increase in faith but, once again, I am not in charge of that so I’ll leave it to those who are.

  11. Stephen Fleming

    Thanks for letting me know your views, Frank. Obviously I have different ones, as I’ve been posting about for some time. I think having these conversations are nonetheless worthwhile.

  12. DaveW, what does it mean for something to be the Word of God? Does it mean that it’s a sufficiently accurate recording of events such that if you were able to time travel you could double check the event and go “Yup, that matches”? Or does it mean something else?
    I think that for a lot of time it means that it’s the best written account we have which was preserved for the purposes of encouraging faith.
    I have opined before that it seems like God isn’t that interested in correcting the historical accounts (via revelation). It’s something that we should all ponder over why it is that way.

  13. My earlier comment (which I acknowledge was entirely comprised of questions – a poor way of “commenting”) was primarily motivated by RLD’s statement: “No need for a faith crisis unless you’re wedded to the idea of an inerrant Bible, which Latter-Day Saints most definitely are not.”

    First off, we’ll acknowledge that trying to pin down Latter-day Saints (or any large group) to ideas that they all agree (or disagree with) is never simple. But really, my questions are about how far most active LDS would go with accepting an OT that is largely talking about events that either never happened, or that happened very differently than they are specifically described in scripture. I suspect that most LDS would really struggle to accept that many of the stories they know from the OT simply didn’t happen.

    The LDS faith has a bit more pinned on the historicity of the OT than many other Christian religions do, because of Joseph Smith, the BoM, D&C and PoGP. Many LDS may accept that the exodus may not have had quite so many people, or crossed the full width of the Red Sea, but without at least some prophet named Moses leading some group of descendants of Israel, then what do we make of D&C 110 and the appearance of Moses in the Kirtland Temple? In addition to being another testament of Jesus Christ, the BoM is also another testament of the tower of Babel via the Jaredites.

    jader3rd appropriately asks “what does it mean for something to be the Word of God?” I don’t know; I’m still working that out. At what point does our confidence in the OT degrade to the point that it turns into faith promoting parables? And how do we maintain a faith community in which some members treat the stories as fact and others treat them as parable?

    I remember lessons as a kid about David and Goliath, where we would measure out his height on the floor (because the room wouldn’t have been tall enough). The lesson hits differently if we teach that Goliath almost certainly wasn’t even close to that tall, very possibly might not have been killed by David, and that the whole Goliath story might not have happened at all. (David at least probably existed?) If we don’t believe that the faith promoting story happened, can’t we just replace it with the story of Frodo destroying the ring to teach kids that they can do hard things?

    I’m still using a lot of questions here, partly because I’m still undecided on some things, and partly because I don’t pretend that I’m right about anything and particularly because I don’t need to convince anyone else to agree with me. I’m still happy with the 11th AoF, even if I’m not sure what to do with the 8th. Two of my favorite passages of scripture are the stories of the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan. Those are both stories, which don’t claim to be real, and allow me to enjoy the teachings contained therein. There’s clearly still power in scriptural fables, though other stories seem to lose some of their impact.

  14. Mark Ashurst-McGee

    I agree with JG that your posts were not antagonistic. And I disagree with you that they were unwelcome. A bunch of questions and concerns and even pushback is what the comment section is for. I for one welcome the rest of your posts even if I have concerns or disagreements.

  15. Mark Ashurst-McGee

    My concerns are kind of like Frank’s. Moses and the Exodus are interwoven densely throughout Restoration scripture. I believe the NT account of Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus and I believe Joseph Smith’s account of Moses and Elijah appearing in the Kirtland temple. Also, if we are bailing on Moses, are we also bailing on Elijah? And the sealing keys? And the eternal bonds that we believe will hold our families together beyond this life? There is A LOT at stake here. Maybe you and a bunch of Bible scholars are right and all the ordinary traditional Latter-Day Saints are wrong. No Moses. No Exodus. No Elijah. No sealing keys. No eternal sealing power. No eternal marriage. I guess I just want to acknowledge that there is a whole lot at stake for traditional believers like me. I’m open to considering what you have to say, but my beliefs in Moses and Elijah are based on a lot more than current Old Testament scholarship.

  16. Stephen Fleming

    I think the topic brings up a number of issues: religious belief and historical research most of all. I certainly don’t have anything like absolute answers since it’s clear that different people approach this topic differently.

    My sense is that many have felt some wiggle room on topics like the age of the earth, evolution, etc. and, in my opinion, shifting points on views on those topics can be models for additional changing ideas while holding onto others.

    I look forward to more discussions.

  17. Ryan Mullen

    “Do we need to be?” Yes, Frank, we absolutely need to be. You may be fine reading the scriptures from a strictly historical perspective. That model has its pros and cons, as all models do, but if you access divinity by reading them that way, I celebrate that as a good thing.

    The weaknesses in treating ancient scripture as historically accurate are too large and too many for me to bother with such a reading, however. And if that were the only option, I’d have effectively ditched ancient scripture years ago. Thankfully, that’s not the only option. Non-traditional readings modeled by modern Biblical scholars transformed ancient scripture for me into a much more vibrant library that I use to access divinity. That is something that I think is very much worth offering to people for whom the historical readings simply don’t work.

  18. Mark Ashurst-McGee

    I’m no Bible scholar (are any of us?).

    I study early American history, and here are some observations:

    Enslavement is the way of the world (it was pervasive in early America just as it was in ancient Egypt).

    Many people who have been enslaved want to get out of that situation.

    Some people attempt to escape slavery on their own and others attempt to escape slavery in groups.

    Some of the groups of enslaved people who seek to escape slavery—by running for safety or through rebellion—have a group leader (like Jemmy in the Stono Rebellion, Gabriel Prosser in Gabriel’s rebellion, Nat Turner in the Southampton Insurrection, Toussaint Louverture in the Haitian Revolution, or even Harriet Tubman in the Underground Railroad).

    I am NOT claiming that this is good evidence for Moses and the Exodus; it’s just a few meagre observations from my own historical period of expertise.

  19. Ryan,

    To tie your comment back to the post, what are the “historical weaknesses” you reference that mean you straight up are not allowed to believe that Moses existed at all (which was what I was addressing in my “do we need to be” comment)? How could you possibly have enough confidence in what we _do_ know to be _sure_ that there was never a prophet named Moses at some point who did prophetic things, even if the record is flawed in various ways?

    To quote Napoleon Dynamite “how could anyone even know that?” I am honestly baffled.

    Sure, I can understand why you would doubt specific events occurred exactly as portrayed, at an exact time, with an exact number of people. But there is huge space between those two kinds of claims.

  20. Mark Ashurst-McGee

    Who is overstating their case?

  21. Well, to be fair, Mark, I was. Rereading my comment and Ryan’s, he certainly didn’t claim that there was incontrovertible evidence against Moses being historical. He said “The weaknesses in treating ancient scripture as historically accurate are too large and too many for me to bother with such a reading, however.” And maybe that is just the weak claim that there are Biblical inaccuracies, which I think most people can accept, or anyway I clearly can.

    What I don’t get is how one moves from that to “and therefore I don’t think there was any prophet named Moses” which is what my comment about “do we need to be flexible” was pushing back against.

  22. Stephen Fleming

    For me the historical and archaeological evidence indicates that there was no Moses as described in the Bible. That’s the conclusion I’ve come to, but would be happy to rethink that if other evidence was forthcoming. I get the sense that Frank feels that the evidence is insufficient to come to the position. I disagree.

    But again, I’m fine with Frank believing in Moses for the reasons he does. I’m simply aware that others (including me) won’t take the same approach. And, therefore, I think it’s useful to talk about these topics and what the implications might be.

  23. Stephen, suppose in a year we found an artifact dated from 1000 BC that references the prophet Moses leading a group of Israelites out of Egypt to Israel, albeit with no numbers of people referenced. Tell me about the evidence you have that makes you sure this artifact can’t be real. Because clearly letters from 300 BC aren’t going to cut it.

  24. Stephen Fleming

    To quote myself, “I would be happy to rethink that if other evidence was forthcoming.” So yes, if evidence of Moses came forth then, I’m happy to give that consideration. As of now, we have none. Elephantine is just one of several points of evidence of the lack of Moses.

    But hypothetical evidence (“what if”) isn’t really evidence. I’d say at this point that such an artifact isn’t real because there is no evidence of it.

  25. Thanks. What I was interested in was the level of your assurance about the evidence you have (which is what the post is about). And that evidence apparently would need, in your view, substantive reassessment if we find a specific new piece of pottery. Given that your belief precariously rests on which particular pieces of pottery we happen to find, it just isn’t really all that solid and I am surprised by how strongly you’ve attached to it. In other words, you make the strong claim, but really all you have is the weak claim. You’ve measured the height of your neighbor and his brother and are ready to make sweeping claims about the exact average height of American males in the 1830s.

    Closer to the mark, I think it used to be more fashionable to cast doubt on whether there was a historical King David. And then they found an artifact in the 90s that made that less fashionable. I suppose the same could be said for the city of Troy. I’d say something like “this isn’t physics” but I recently saw an article about how Nobel prize work on dark energy may get overturned because, you know, I think we got a better telescope.

    Well maybe we should just hold off from believing things so strongly that are based on such tenuous foundations. Allow a little more doubt to exist in the scholarly process when the process is still so incomplete. Why not be flexible in that way?

  26. Stephen Fleming

    I’m happy to be flexible but there’s all kind of missing evidence for Moses. Nothing in Egypt, not evidence of a conquest. Nothing outside the Bible anywhere until Hecataeus of Abdera c. 300 BC. So based on that, it seems to me that Gmrikin’s argument of how the Moses tradition was developed seems reasonable.

    As I said in a previous post, I don’t believe that God demands that I believe in a historical Moses: https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2024/05/what-historical-claims-does-god-insist-that-we-believe/

  27. In your linked post you say “Are we really “required” to reject such scholarship in the face of overwhelming evidence?” but when I ask for the overwhelming evidence all you offer is crickets. While your missing evidence arguments are reasonable concerns for 3 million Israelite migrants doing exactly as stated in the Bible, it is roughly no evidence at all against a smaller migration.

    You note that some guy has a reasonable argument, but not really much actual evidence (just things that are missing) and all easily refuted if the appropriate piece of pottery emerges, an event we know has happened before in other such circumstances. Also refuted if, you know, you believe D&C 110 or the Gospels. So why bother taking a stand at all? You can just be unsure about the state of the non-revelatory evidence. In fact, how could you be anything _but_ unsure about the state of the non-revelatory evidence for something that long ago? That’s the flexibility I’m suggesting.

  28. Stephen Fleming

    I disagree with your interpretation of the evidence, and don’t find imagined evidence (some piece of pottery) helpful in the study of history. There’s a reason why scholars say we don’t have evidence for Moses. Because we don’t. I suppose that leaves me with the question of what WOULD you take as evidence for Moses not existing other than a complete lack of evidence for him existing?

    For me, when it comes to historical claims, I’m good to pay attention to what the evidence indicates. I don’t believe that God demands that I believe otherwise. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2024/10/believing-history/

    Are you really bothered that I’m okay with the scholarship on this topic?

  29. I’m bothered in the same way I am bothered when people at work bring me their experimental results thinking they have found something interesting but I know from looking at the standard errors that they lack enough information to actually make any claims at all. They failed to consider the standard error.

    “I disagree with your interpretation of the evidence, and don’t find imagined evidence (some piece of pottery) helpful in the study of history. ”

    “we know very little about this, so our understanding could easily shift radically if new information emerged” is a reasonable statement, driven by a hypothetical or imaginary possibility. I guess maybe you have not spent much time in statistics where people think about these things a lot?

    Or maybe I am wrong and you will, in your reply reveal that you have a deep interest and knowledge of statistics. Since I have very little information about you, that is also plausible. Thus I would be wise to refrain from being confident I already know something. A conclusion I drew from imagining hypothetical new evidence.

  30. Stephen Fleming

    Indeed, there is very great deal of difference between the amount of data that modern statistician can study and the amount of information we have on the ancient world. But I feel strongly that much less information doesn’t mean that one should simply throw out all historical evidence and inquiry that one does not like. Biblical studies is pretty much the most studied topic there is so we’re talking about a tremendous amount of time and individuals working on this.

    To me, what you seem to be saying is, “I’m a statistician, so I will simply dismiss that massive amount of study that has gone into the scholarship you have read.” To me, that feels quite problematic and that you are not engaging in this topic very thoroughly.

    “I know more than those hoards of scholars who have worked on this because I’m a statistician” is a claim that I don’t find shedding much light on this topic.

  31. Ryan Mullen

    Frank,

    I’m certainly not saying that you can’t believe in a historical Moses. I’m just saying that I don’t. For me, the evidence we have about the ancient near east paints a different enough picture about the development of the Israelite and Judahite monarchies that the Biblical narrative does not seem plausible. I recognize that not everyone who reads the scholarship has come to that same conclusion, but I think that enough people have that Latter-day Saints would be well served to be “flexible on the historicity of Moses” as Stephen put it.

  32. Stephen,

    I’m not dismissing anything. Some, or many, Biblical scholars agreed on hypothesis A (Moses was not exactly as in the Bible) and I am asking how much certainty there is around related hypothesis B (no version of Moses existed) and your response so far has been to point out that we don’t have affirmative evidence for a huge Exodus or conquest — which is about A not B — and then to talk about how accepting you are of Biblical scholarship around hypothesis A.

    So once again, lay it on me; what is the affirmative evidence that *no* version of Moses existed? Because obviously it would be no surprise at all that a smaller exodus would be missing from records and archaeology. We apparently didn’t even know about Hatshepsut until the nineteenth century for goodness sake. Or have any historical evidence of David until recently. So surely there is *some* version of Moses you would agree that archaeology would currently be uninformative about. We can, for example, agree that archaeology will never definitively show that no bush ever burned on top of a mountain for a man named Moses ever for all time.

    Now if you say “of course we can’t know that *no* version of Moses existed” well then what is there to argue about? The evidence simply is not there. The confidence intervals are too wide to say interesting things about some parts of the question. This happens in statistical inquiry all the time and one simply acknowledges the unknowable.

    I imagine there are many statements that those Biblical scholars would agree we lack enough evidence to say much about. I have found in general that the best scholars often express their certainties with extraordinary nuance, when speaking one on one of things close to their subject.

  33. Ryan, fair enough. But as you consider what you know and don’t, bear in mind those monarchies were centuries after anything that happened with Moses. Our record of them could be wildly off and it would not logically change whether or not Moses could have led a group of slaves out of Egypt 6-800 years earlier or talked with God and received priesthood keys.

    Point being, maybe instead of us being flexible about what Joseph and Oliver saw in visions and who gave him keys, why not start by being flexible about how much we can really know from the deeply incomplete historical record 3500 years ago?

  34. Ryan Mullen

    “Moses could have …” Sure, anything is possible. “That Moses is the most likely explanation for …” Nope. (Again, you can read the data differently.)

    Re visions and keys. Moses doesn’t have to be any more historical than the beasts in Revelation or the angels in Ezekiel for Joseph and Oliver to have seen him in vision. Even the word “keys” is symbolic. They didn’t receive anything physical from the envisioned Moses. An ahistorical Moses causes no problems whatsoever with the claims of the Restored Gospel from my view.

  35. Stephen Fleming

    Yes, I’m like Ryan. I mentioned on a previous post that when it comes to ancient history, a TON of things are POSSIBLE (aliens, Atlantis etc) so I don’t find that framework very helpful.

    For me, the question is “what does the evidence indicate?” And based on the evidence, I don’t believe that there was a historical biblical Moses.

    So in sum, could there have been some person named Moses who did some things not particularly related to biblical stuff? Sure.

    Do I think there was such a figure based on the evidence? No I don’t.

    Am I obliged to believe in a historical Moses figure because of my religion? I don’t believe that my religion obliges me to believe in particular historical things that the evidence contradicts.

    Jesus said we’re judged based on Matthew 25:31-46, not on whether we believe in the historicity of figures from the Pentateuch.

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