- Hoosier on Disillusionment: Spiritual Experiences Not Seeming to Work Out: “@Davek do you have specific evidence that D&C 103:4 is unwarranted? Bear in mind that D&C 103 was before Zion’s Camp (you seem to have the timeline a bit confused) and well before the Mormon Missouri War of 1838. The main body of the Church was still in Kirtland and it seems the Saints were so eager to move in and expand that the Saint’s newspaper in Jackson County had to run editorials reminding the newcomers that land was to be purchased according to law, not conquered with the sword. Seems to me like there’s room for some lack of hearkening in the historical record.” Jul 12, 23:16
- on Disillusionment: Spiritual Experiences Not Seeming to Work Out: “Old Man, Just to clarify: my “crashing and burning” had to do primarily with mental illness. I see it as a personal problem–I don’t blame the church at all. Re: Grenfell: She has made video after video speaking ill of the church in every way she can conjure up: https://www.youtube.com/@alyssadgrenfell” Jul 12, 21:13
- on Disillusionment: Spiritual Experiences Not Seeming to Work Out: “SVbob, Your conception of God is horrific.” Jul 12, 16:27
- on Disillusionment: Spiritual Experiences Not Seeming to Work Out: “One more thing: My dictum is that when you get a blessing, a curse comes along for the ride. When you get a curse (bad thing) there is also a blessing waiting. Be wary, look for the curses and the blessings. My first wife, whom I loved deeply, and with whom I enjoyed life, demanded 6 children. Raising sex children was a real task. Now, I love them dearly. But one 50 year old is a real problem. Curses and blessings.” Jul 12, 16:20
- on Disillusionment: Spiritual Experiences Not Seeming to Work Out: “My father taught me an important lesson. He pointed out that God only answers some prayers. If he answered every prayer we would need no faith. If he answered NO prayers, then we would have no faith. So he answers some prayers. I have enlarged this observation. God is a monopolist. He controls all of the spiritual happenings on the earth. His goal, like every normal monopolist, is to maximize His returns. A monopolist raises the price on the goods they control to maximize their cash return. This is the point of maximum economic pain for the society. So, God, in order to maximize his spiritual return on the planet, operates at maximum spiritual pain. Jesus pointed this out. The Syrian general came to Elias to be healed from his leprosy. He was healed, and everyone knew about it. Jesus pointed out that there were lots of Jews with leprosy who were not healed. In the monopolist theory, every Jewish leper prayed all the harder to be healed. Thus, God increased his spiritual yield and the planet’s spiritual pain. I have been the recipient of blessings. Oddly enough I did not ask for them, but in retrospect I absolutely know they were miraculous. So, in the present, I only ask in general that my life and the lives of my loved ones might be easier. That they will live long and productive lives. In general I know God cares, but I do not trust Him. God’s education can be brutal as well and loving. My wife died young. God had a wonderful woman waiting. Go figure.” Jul 12, 16:10
- on Disillusionment: Spiritual Experiences Not Seeming to Work Out: “One of the most insidious traits of church leadership is their tendency to blame individual members when promised blessings don’t materialize. D&C 103:4 tells us that the saints suffered so much in the failed march to Missouri “because they did not hearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them.” All they did was try their earnest best to follow the prophet and receive promised blessings, and they were instead blamed for not being righteous enough. I recall once meeting with my bishop when I was a college student. I was trying to juggle full-time work AND a full load of classes AND dating. In retrospect, I was completely overwhelmed and probably a little depressed. I went to my bishop for help and he immediately asked me which commandments I was struggling with. Like it’s obvious that flagging mental health is the direct result of sin. I was to blame for whatever was going wrong in my life. Anecdotally, I have heard dozens of similar accounts. We are promised innumerable blessings for jumping through the right hoops. “And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” But somehow when we do our part and the promised blessings don’t follow, church leadership concludes that we are the problem. The alternative would be to admit that the scripture above is incorrect, and that is unthinkable.” Jul 12, 14:53
- on [Mental Illness] The Weight of Happiness: “I think we misunderstand the doctrine of agency. Lehi said we are “free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death.” Thanks to the atonement of Christ, we have perfect control over our final destination. But he said nothing about being able to perfectly control our actions, let alone our experiences or circumstances. Any tyrant can stop people from doing what they want to do–and God lets them, because that doesn’t take away agency. (Much of the misunderstanding is due to well-meaning attempts to enlist the doctrine of agency in the fight against 20th century tyrannies. Political freedom is not agency.) Circumstances stop us from doing what we want to do all the time, which doesn’t take away our agency either. And mental illness is a tyrant indeed. Of course that’s barely scratching the surface of your profound and moving post. I’m still pondering the rest.” Jul 12, 11:28
- on Disillusionment: Spiritual Experiences Not Seeming to Work Out: “I didn’t mean to start a debate over Grenfell. I’ve seen a few of her videos and I differ from her view of Mormonism. I was interested in looking at this one because I find Mormons talking about their experiences interesting. I’d seen a few interviews of people mentioning having what they viewed as “failed” spiritual experiences, so since I had this video handy, I linked to it. I do think that ex-Mormon are probably more open about talking about disillusioning spiritual experiences than active Mormons are. So such discussions are probably easier to find on Grenfell’s channel than pro-Mormon ones. Again, I don’t view Mormonism like Grenfell does, but I can empathize with feeling some concerns and hurts over the issues she mentions at the time in the video I noted. And I do think that expressions of sympathy to other’s hurts is a good thing. A challenging process and we can learn a lot, though it can be tough along the way.” Jul 12, 10:54
- on Disillusionment: Spiritual Experiences Not Seeming to Work Out: “I don’t know anything about Ms. Grenfell, but otherwise I’m with OP and the first commenter. I am reminded of Luke 2:19, “But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.” Yeah, that thought goes well with enduring to the end. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what really matters [but note that this is not the same as faith in the church as an institution or faith in the current prophet as a person]. Many things that are said among us never come to pass, and many things that are otherwise perceived also may not to come to pass. But life goes on, and hopefully faith endures and matures — and along the way, there is space for wisdom and charity to grow. But yes, in our church culture, we seem to want certainty and happy endings in our talks and lessons.” Jul 12, 09:40
