Reading Stephen’s Old Testament posts I found them interesting but tended to come back to how to think about certainty.  I started writing a comment but once I hit 500 words I figured it made more sense to just write a separate post.

Start with a general observation: the claim “in the field of x, there is no evidence for y” tends to conflate two claims, one much stronger than the other. The strong claim is that “we have a lot of evidence and we know a lot about things around x, so we can rule out y as true”. The weak claim is “we have huge amounts of missing information in the field of x, so we lack enough evidence to say that y is true because we have no idea”. Both of them, and many things in between, get read out as “there is no evidence for claim y.”

So when Stephen says “So let’s just repeat: it is widely accepted that there isn’t historical evidence for the events in the Pentateuch, especially the Exodus and Conquest. ” is this the strong claim or the weak claim? Or how much of each? For example, I am on board with the idea that the exact description of the Exodus, including exact dates, time spans, and number of people, may all be wrong, and since none of them are really crucial to the message I am fine with not knowing. I think if such an event occurred precisely as described, there is enough evidence of events in our current record that you’d expect more of it to be visible, so there is something getting close to the strong claim that the events exactly as described did not happen, even if we still have some pretty big gaps in archaeology. But can the extant record definitively rule out a smaller exodus of 3000 people (or whatever) at some point in a 500 year time span? I don’t know, but I am doubtful our knowledge is that good.

Next, there is the idea of something being “widely accepted” and how strong a piece of evidence that is. This is a straight up appeal to authority, which is fine as far as it goes, but crucially relies on how much we think the authorities know. Personally, I think biblical scholars know some things, but I suspect that many of them have some substantive biases and that, like most academic fields, there are some things they are happy to consider open questions and other things where they’ve all just sort of agreed on something even if the actual evidence for or against it is actually pretty weak.  And I fully expect that in the coming decades, the field will discover a rather large number of things to be true that it previously rejected.  So… while I am willing to accept their claims about narrow statements, I am super doubtful about claims as they come to span wider and wider areas.  If a Bible scholar says the root of a given word is probably x, I’ll go with it.  But I get real skeptical when it comes to really big claims, because I think a fair bit of group think is at play.

Lastly, one of the most important aspects of belief is how it may cause a change in our behavior.  if something requires more of me, then I am going to require a higher standard of proof. If you tell me that actually Ramses the great was not that great and most of what we know is myth, that is kind of interesting and may or may not be true, but has little implications for my world view and what God expects of me. The same is not nearly as true with knowing that Moses, in some form, existed as an actual prophet, so it makes sense to require a higher bar of evidence. A bar that is substantially higher than the current conflation offered by  “we have no evidence that …”


Comments

13 responses to “OT Epistemology”

  1. Stephen Fleming

    I see my series has been much more antagonistic than I meant it to be. That was clearly very naive on my part. To repeat, it was a product of two things: my own research on Joseph Smith that I’ve worked on a very long time and have a lot of expertise and some readings on biblical scholarship. Again my research on JS indicated to me that he believed there was truth among the Greeks that Bible writers/compilers (and Protestants) had suppressed and felt that he should restore (like the plan of salvation). So scholarly arguments indicating the important influence of Greek stuff on the NT seemed like a nice correlation. And if evidence indicated that lots of the OT, especially the Pentateuch, isn’t historical, then I thought, “that’s okay!”

    So I wanted to share a few thoughts since I’ve seen a number of Mormon and evangelical losing faith over biblical scholarship. “It doesn’t have to be that way!” is my opinion.

    But yes, I see I’ve said many things that many have found unwelcome.

  2. I wouldn’t necessarily say “antagonistic.” You got Frank to put up a post!

    But yeah, I think your approach could be more generalizable and feasible for more people if it avoided some unnecessary clobbering of red lines. I think you can make your point in most cases without it.

  3. Statistics has a notion of “power,” which is basically the smallest effect you can detect given your data. So if a drug trial fails to find a significant effect, a careful statistician will not say “Now we know your drug doesn’t work.” She may say “If your drug has any effect at all, it must be smaller than the size that the study was designed to detect.”

    It seems to me that something analogous applies to reconstructing the past. The experts are telling us they have enough “archeological power” to detect something like the exodus and the invasion of Canaan as described in the Old Testament. But they don’t have enough power to detect a much smaller and more peaceful exodus that then got wildly exaggerated. (It wouldn’t be the first time in ancient sources–see Herodotus’s account of the size of the Persian army that invaded Greece.) Now, if you’re going just by secular sources, Occam’s razor suggests dropping the exodus entirely. But if you’re willing to accept information from modern revelation, then a small exodus is, in my opinion, the preferred explanation.

    Or, to flip it around, while secular history and archeology can’t provide evidence that there was a Moses for Joseph Smith to see in the Kirtland temple, they can’t exclude the possibility–and believing things for which there is no solid secular evidence is part and parcel of living the gospel. No need for a faith crisis unless you’re wedded to the idea of an inerrant Bible, which Latter-Day Saints most definitely are not. But I’ll grant it’s unsettling to realize the errors are probably much bigger than we usually assume.

  4. Something that I find ironic (is this the proper use of ironic) is that I recently watched Sideproject’s YouTube video “Discoveries That Confirm Parts of the Bible”. One thing it points out is that there is part of the Nile marshland where occasionally the wind blows hard enough that it “drains” that part of the swamp. This is pretty unique to that part of the world. Pair that with Exodus saying that the wind blew all night, and it’s feasible that a strip of land that’s normally impassible became passible for one morning.
    So from a secular source I get “Hey, more probability that the events in the OT did happen (even if at a smaller scale than recorded)”, but from a spiritual source I’m reading, “There’s no evidence for events in the OT happening”.
    I’m finding all of this to be very fascinating.

  5. If Latter-day Saints believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly, does that allow for significantly inaccurate claims from the old testament? If Numbers claims millions of people in the Exodus, but the truth is a maximum of a few thousand, is that a translation error? If the walls of Jericho never fell, where does that leave the 8th article of faith?

  6. Joseph Smith used the term “translate” very loosely. A lot of ink has been spilled on this topic, but it seems to me he used it for everything that happened between “an ancient prophet gets inspiration” and “we read the Bible.”

    Given that he frequently talked about corruption in the Bible, specifically including changes to the text in the original language, he must have been including that in things that are not “translated” correctly. I think the things we’re talking about here would fit in that category as well.

  7. Stephen Fleming

    And all good points, Frank. I think you nicely lay out common ways that believers approach these kinds of topics. I do think DaveW also illustrates some of the faith concerns. And I like RLD suggesting approaching these topics and JS statements with some flexibility (“very loosely.”) For me, these points all add up to being okay with the possibility of the implications of what a lot of these scholars are suggesting. Can we be flexible on even the historicity of Moses? Even what JS said? Is it okay for JS to operate within his cultural/religious expectations?

  8. Thanks for the comments, all.

    RLD, yes the statistical power is the way I think about it too.

    DaveW, personally I think the OT’s approach to numbers is pretty loose, so that is one area where I tend to be very willing to believe errors occur. But note that I never said “a maximum of a few thousand” so if you are getting that from my post let me disavow that language :)

    Stephen, “Can we be flexible on even the historicity of Moses?”

    Do we need to be? As I wrote in my post, I am not even sure if you are making the strong or weak claim in these OT posts. If you are making the strong claim then I suspect you are wrong to have such confidence. If you are making the weak claim then there is not much to talk about unless one has inexplicably decided to predicate belief in Moses on affirmative confirmation by non-religious sources.

  9. Stephen Fleming

    I guess what do you mean by the “we” in “Do we need to be?” I’m happy for you and others to believe what you like, but the evidence is pretty strong so that leads people to the conclusions that I keep referring to my posts: the lack of historicity of the Pentateuch and concerns over faith. If you don’t feel that way, that’s fine, but others do have concern.

    So I’ll bring up my point again, “Can we be flexible on even the historicity of Moses?” based on the evidence?

  10. “but the evidence is pretty strong ” — so you’re making the strong claim.

    Well what do _you_ mean by we when you say “can we be flexible”?

    As far as can an individual believe such a thing and still be in good standing, I take the temple recommend questions as my guide and since I am not an ecclesiastical leader for anyone that’s good enough for me. Is that the flexibility you want?

    But if by “we” you mean “the church in its teachings and manuals” then I would guess “we” should not because there is no evidence refuting a historical Moses and we have multiple accounts of him from non-OT sources (Nephi, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in D&C 110, Mount of Transfiguration). So such flexibility is really asking, I take it, to be flexible on all of those sources as well. Seems like a bad idea to me and hardly likely to lead to a net increase in faith but, once again, I am not in charge of that so I’ll leave it to those who are.

  11. Stephen Fleming

    Thanks for letting me know your views, Frank. Obviously I have different ones, as I’ve been posting about for some time. I think having these conversations are nonetheless worthwhile.

  12. DaveW, what does it mean for something to be the Word of God? Does it mean that it’s a sufficiently accurate recording of events such that if you were able to time travel you could double check the event and go “Yup, that matches”? Or does it mean something else?
    I think that for a lot of time it means that it’s the best written account we have which was preserved for the purposes of encouraging faith.
    I have opined before that it seems like God isn’t that interested in correcting the historical accounts (via revelation). It’s something that we should all ponder over why it is that way.

  13. My earlier comment (which I acknowledge was entirely comprised of questions – a poor way of “commenting”) was primarily motivated by RLD’s statement: “No need for a faith crisis unless you’re wedded to the idea of an inerrant Bible, which Latter-Day Saints most definitely are not.”

    First off, we’ll acknowledge that trying to pin down Latter-day Saints (or any large group) to ideas that they all agree (or disagree with) is never simple. But really, my questions are about how far most active LDS would go with accepting an OT that is largely talking about events that either never happened, or that happened very differently than they are specifically described in scripture. I suspect that most LDS would really struggle to accept that many of the stories they know from the OT simply didn’t happen.

    The LDS faith has a bit more pinned on the historicity of the OT than many other Christian religions do, because of Joseph Smith, the BoM, D&C and PoGP. Many LDS may accept that the exodus may not have had quite so many people, or crossed the full width of the Red Sea, but without at least some prophet named Moses leading some group of descendants of Israel, then what do we make of D&C 110 and the appearance of Moses in the Kirtland Temple? In addition to being another testament of Jesus Christ, the BoM is also another testament of the tower of Babel via the Jaredites.

    jader3rd appropriately asks “what does it mean for something to be the Word of God?” I don’t know; I’m still working that out. At what point does our confidence in the OT degrade to the point that it turns into faith promoting parables? And how do we maintain a faith community in which some members treat the stories as fact and others treat them as parable?

    I remember lessons as a kid about David and Goliath, where we would measure out his height on the floor (because the room wouldn’t have been tall enough). The lesson hits differently if we teach that Goliath almost certainly wasn’t even close to that tall, very possibly might not have been killed by David, and that the whole Goliath story might not have happened at all. (David at least probably existed?) If we don’t believe that the faith promoting story happened, can’t we just replace it with the story of Frodo destroying the ring to teach kids that they can do hard things?

    I’m still using a lot of questions here, partly because I’m still undecided on some things, and partly because I don’t pretend that I’m right about anything and particularly because I don’t need to convince anyone else to agree with me. I’m still happy with the 11th AoF, even if I’m not sure what to do with the 8th. Two of my favorite passages of scripture are the stories of the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan. Those are both stories, which don’t claim to be real, and allow me to enjoy the teachings contained therein. There’s clearly still power in scriptural fables, though other stories seem to lose some of their impact.

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