- A Non-E Mous on Latter-day Saint Where’s Waldo and Stephen Biesty Cross-Sections: “Only tangentially related: in the 90s, a third party publisher put out a Where’s Waldo copycat called “I Spy a Nephite”. (I just looked and noticed the publisher is “White Horse Books” which is just so on the nose for the time period.) May be worth your time!” Mar 7, 05:50
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “I quite like that perspective, Carey. One of my BYU professors said something similar at the end of a class which was very heavily focused on racial reckoning. I suspect that will be summarily dismissed as “guilt prophylaxis” or some such Dan McClellan-ism by parties so inclined. But I suppose you can’t please everybody.” Mar 6, 21:40
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “From a theological perspective, we could frame issues like this within the idea that each generation seeks forgiveness for the sins and shortcomings of its time. That concept is even reflected symbolically in the temple washing ordinance, which includes language about being cleansed from the sins of one’s generation. Approaching the question this way allows us to view the pioneers in a more complete light recognizing both their heroism and their failures without feeling forced to choose between the two. It provides a way to honor their courage and sacrifices while also acknowledging that they were not flawless.” Mar 6, 19:00
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “Fair enough. If more incremental needle-pushing is the goal then it has had its effect, in me at least. But as a rule I tend to take rhetoric at its word. I’ll read your review of Boxer with some interest.” Mar 6, 15:45
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “I understand what you’re saying, and have observed that in the writings. Maybe it’s because I’ve had to deal with corporate politics as a manager, but I see it as something where you push for extemes with a silent and more realistic expectation of just moving the needle a bit (with a touch of amplification by outrage and trauma). So, that is how I square that circle. As far as changes, I generally try to leave that to the people affected to answer what they need that is doable (with the caveats that all government interventions are fraught and society is complicated and difficult to engineer). From what I’ve read, independence and acceptance to preserve their culture, better options for education, better access to healthy food and drink, and the ability to manage more of their traditional homelands (e.g., Bear Ears area), are some of the things they really want (as well as the occasional call for financial reparations). To the point of the OP, more honest and sympathetic portrayals of the history in public spaces would also be a nice start. But again, I don’t want to put words in their mouths.” Mar 6, 13:49
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “Ah, there’s the rub, isn’t it? What changes would actually improve the situation? As far as the OP goes, I honestly don’t really care about defending Jim Bridger’s accolades. I don’t think litigating any “quantum of persecution” is very productive either. But I don’t see a way to satisfy those “extreme expressions” for which you have such patience. Their demands are eliminationist. It’s one thing to attack the historicity of the Book of Mormon…been there, done that, will doubtless see more of it. But they go past simply arguing that it’s not true. There’s no way to accomodate their demands without ceasing to be as a people, without disclaiming virtually everything that made us as evil. The only thing left of our common experience after we’ve satisfied them will be ancestral remorse, and self-abjuration, and maybe a casserole. I would like to see how you square the circle, but perhaps that’s better left for the review of Boxer.” Mar 6, 12:25
- on Latter-day Saint Where’s Waldo and Stephen Biesty Cross-Sections: “As someone who has spent the past couple years deeply understanding downtown Salt Lake City in the period 1882 – 1915, that ZCMI marquee intrinsically annoys me!” Mar 6, 11:16
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “Just to be precise, there is a difference between saying that a couple of articles and books delegitimize the existence of “certain people” and erase a history of violent persecution, and having scholarship question the historicity of the Book of Mormon and challenge how we have applied the idea of Lamanites to Indigenous peoples in the nineteenth, twentieth, and twenty-first centuries. To do so is an oversimplification. I personally have mixed feelings about some of what those scholars say – particularly demands that the Church abandon the Book of Mormon. The Boxer book I mentioned in the post falls into a similar category, and you’ll see some of my mixed feelings about it when my review goes live in a couple of weeks. At the same time, the violent persecutions that early Latter-day Saints experienced and the efforts of White Protestant Americans to force Mormons in Utah to follow their expectations about capitalism, marriage practices, and theocracy give me more sympathy towards the Indigenous peoples who experienced similar things, but more intensely: When you think about scale, the Hawn’s Mill Massacre is the most widely known mass murder committed against Latter-day Saints, which killed around 17 people. We probably had a couple of dozen other people die in the Missouri exodus. Hundreds died on the way west to Utah, with the Martin and Willie Handcart companies being the most notable examples (though logistical challenges rather than direct persecution were at play there). But, by comparison, the Bear River Massacre alone killed 250 to 493 Shoshone people. The massacre was not carried out by Latter-day Saints, but it was done in “defense” of Latter-day settlers in Cache Valley. Likewise, during the Long Walk of the Navajo, up to 3,500 Dine people died from starvation and disease over four years. Again, that was another incident headed by the U.S. Army rather than Mormons, but was done, in part, because of complaints by Latter-day Saint settlers in the region during the Black Hawk War. Beyond deaths, there is also the concern of cultural genocide – we get upset about the efforts to end polygamy, communal living, and theocracy during the Raid, but as soon as those changes were made, the government got off our backs (even if conservative Evangelical Christians never have). Compare that with the history of Native Americans, who have had political autonomy challenged repeatedly, and faced efforts like the government boarding schools to strip children of their ancestral culture and ways of living, or “Kill the Indian in him, and save the man.” This was practiced well into the twentieth century. In fact, there are still a couple of Native American boarding schools in operation to this day. This doesn’t undo or delegitimize that Latter-day Saints died in Missouri or that we faced violent persecution repeatedly throughout the nineteenth century, but I note this to explain why I feel some sympathy towards Indigenous peoples and patience about extreme expressions in their scholarship to make the point that they have faced a lot of violent persecution as well (both physical and cultural), are still feeling the effects of it, and would appreciate changes being made to improve the situation for them.” Mar 6, 09:16
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “John Mansfield: Priestley and Lavoisier isolated and studied oxygen in ways not previously done. Priestly documented how to generate oxygen, and it’s effects on both mice and himself. What exactly did Bridger “discover” about Great Salt Lake? That it was big, wet and salty? Were the locals unaware of that?” Mar 6, 09:08
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: ““Settler colonialism” absolutely is deployed to delegitimize the existence and independence of certain peoples and I’m tired of pretending it doesn’t. One only needs to read Hemopereki Simon or Thomas Murphy to see that plain as day.” Mar 6, 07:55
