- anononandoff on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “by that i mean that anciently, He didn’t give bread and wine (or loaves and fishes) personally to everyone. He asked those with His authority to do it. that’s how He rolls.” Jul 23, 01:55
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “i actually disagree on this one. scriptural patterns show Jesus administering the sacrament first to His 12, and then to others. i’m particularly struck by that pattern in the book of mormon. for me, it’s all about the way HIS power is distributed and is all an invitation to ponder what (or Whom) priesthood holders represent. if the bishop represents God or Christ, wouldn’t we start with serving Him the gift He gave us? and yet He desires us all to receive it AND lets 11-year-old boys have the experience of representing Him in that act…just like He did anciently.” Jul 23, 01:54
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “What’s interesting to me is that the handbook requires this practice, it isn’t one of the “unwritten order of things” practices, but there is no explanation of WHY the presiding authority is served first. I agree that it appears to be an “unnecessary spiritual hierarchy”, but others who have commented seem to find it off-putting (and I get that) while others believe it’s an “innocuous display of respect”. Okay. Since there is no explanation for this requirement it can be anything you want it to be I guess.” Jul 22, 21:05
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “In the sacramental meal in Third Nephi, the apostles eat first, and they eat until they are filled. Then everyone else in the congregation gets to eat. I think that is the scriptural precedent for the practice.” Jul 22, 19:54
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “Innocuous displays of respect for people we dump a ton of personal concerns on each week are good, actually.” Jul 22, 18:52
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “I don’t man. In my Bible Jesus had each of the Apostles had wash His feet before they were allowed to eat the stale Wonder bread and drink the oddly metallic-tasting water. Jesus was super big on titles, hierarchy, and ‘the uniform of the Priesthood.”” Jul 22, 18:02
- on Judge Not in Church—or anywhere (Or What Did Church Lead You to Think About Yesterday), 7/12: “Here’s a few of my thoughts in reaction to what I experienced in Church recently: I’ve noticed that we’re singing more “children’s songs” — i.e., songs that would have been segregated into the “Children’s Songbook” in the past. As I understand it, the Church is eliminating the Children’s hymnbook in favor of everything in a single book. But what interests me is how this will affect our understanding of hymns. Since the hymns oriented towards children generally have simpler melodies and use simpler language, will our understanding of what a hymn is change? Will more complex hymns go out-of-favor? And will we benefit from more people singing and more connection as a result? One speaker recently said something about pride that led me to redefine it — pride is thinking that my contributions are more noteworthy than others. Like what I said in the op above, there’s an element of comparison here, since we’re comparing our contributions to others. Not only do we have different abilities and different situations that limit or expand our contributions, but we also are leaving out a host of other factors. Is pride just about comparison and judgment? Someone in Sunday school used the phrase “voting with their feet” when talking about who comes to church. In addition to thinking about how they are essentially making a judgment when they do that, it led me to the phrase I’ve used a lot in the last few years: “The Life Changing Magic of Just Showing Up.” The phrase doesn’t say whose life is changed when we show up — I must admit that I often think about it as my life when I show up. But it also can be life changing for those who I show up for — whether it’s service or just attending church. Showing up is definitely life changing. ” Jul 22, 15:25
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “I agree that it’s unnecessary and certainly not scriptural. I also am not fond of the practice of having all the other deacons wait at the sacrament table until the bishop takes the sacrament. The handbook says the presiding officer receives the sacrament first, but it doesn’t say we are supposed to make a big show of it. I’m not sure of the current handbook, but not too many years ago, it did say that deacons can be walking to their assigned place while the bishop takes the sacrament. The wait-at-the-table practice seems to come and go over the years depending on the ward and the bishop and the Aaronic priesthood advisors. A few years ago, we had an advisor who always assigned himself to the pass to the bishop. The deacons were perfectly able to see when the bishop had taken the sacrament, but the advisor would nevertheless turn around and give the most exaggerated nod imaginable to signal the deacons that they could leave the table. I’m not sure, but he might have been monitoring the moment the bishop swallowed, or perhaps when the bread had fully transited the esophagus. For a short while in my ward, they had the deacons wait for both the stake president and the bishop to take the sacrament. I think the bishop put an end to that. There is only one person presiding.” Jul 22, 14:46
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “Here’s the one I struggle with. Church protocol says that only the presiding officer in the meeting can decide if the congregation may stand for the singing of a hymn. I’m not sure if this directive is currently in the handbook, but even if it is, many people don’t know about it. I’ve heard more than one first-person account of being at stake conference and seeing the music leader be publicly corrected when they unknowingly motion for the congregation to stand for the intermediate hymn. I just don’t understand how this can possibly be so important that it’s worth embarrassing some poor unsuspecting music leader in public.” Jul 22, 12:44
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “I’m with you on this. Church culture is already more hierarchical than it needs to be, and it doesn’t need this reinforcement. (I’d argue it’s even more hierarchical than the Handbook calls for. Most members would say the bishop leads everything in a ward, while the Handbook says that for some big areas the bishop “coordinates” while the EQ and RS presidents “lead.”) But Jonathan Haidt helped me have more charity about it. Apologies to those who know this literature well, but in his book The Righteous Mind he describes asking research subjects to respond to a hypothetical situation: You’re at a big family reunion, and each family will perform a comedy skit. The script for your family’s skit calls for you to pretend to slap your father. He is enthusiastic about the skit, and it has been carefully choreographed so there is no risk of you actually hitting him. Will you do it? I would, but when I picture that situation I can feel my gut-level respect for authority saying “This is wrong!” in a way that it doesn’t at all if I replace my father with one of my brothers. (For one thing, my brothers are all hams who would milk the scene for all it is worth.) I’m sure Peter had that same gut feeling when Jesus washed his feet. Some people just seem to be born with a stronger gut-level respect for authority than others, and for those people little things, like taking the sacrament first, or the bishop’s first counselor sitting on his right and his second counselor on his left, just feel deeply right. I’d still get rid of them, but I understand where it’s coming from. (I think this also explains why some members bristle at any suggestion of prophetic fallibility, while for others it’s obvious.)” Jul 22, 11:36
