- RL on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “I honestly believe the for the classification memo thing it may have been reviewed by a member in the chain or was just a mistake. An argument can be made having a slightly different classification with Christ in the name is better than being grouped with other mostly Protestant sub groups. As someone who works on DOD/DOW policy the sausage made often comes out imperfect in the process. Hegseth likes his right wing Protestant faith but I don’t see a conspiracy. I think we often argue about the wrong things with Hegseth. Making fun of his past alcohol is misguided. I think his politicization of the military and self promotion are eerie and uncomfortable to experience. He uses his speeches to take shots at immigrants, sexual minorities, and his actions are done with the interests of white men in mind. The DOD looks like America and is more integrated than any other part of our country and he is working to try to change that. In the future we’ll find out more about how Pete Hegseth administers and when house oversight strengthens. I am personally concerned most with the false doctrine and worldliness he teaches: Hegseth: “our diversity is our strength” [is the] the “single dumbest phrase in military history Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “the diversity of persons and peoples all around the globe is a strength“ Hegseth says: “History teaches that those willing to wage war to defend peace are the only ones who actually deserve it”. This idea of limiting who deserves peace doesn’t fit with the Gospels or Alma. President Nelson taught:“Too many pundits, politicians, entertainers, and other influencers throw insults constantly. I am greatly concerned that so many people seem to believe that it is completely acceptable to condemn, malign, and vilify anyone who does not agree with them.” President Oaks teaches: “Years later, President Howard W. Hunter described this same love of God toward His children: “The world in which we live would bene?t greatly if men and women everywhere would exercise the pure love of Christ, which is kind, meek, and lowly. … It has no place for bigotry, hatred, or violence. … It encourages diverse people to live together in Christian love regardless of religious belief, race, nationality, ?nancial standing, education, or culture.” The memo doesn’t really matter. It’s minor and seems like bread for circuses and has fostered mostly superficial online chatter. The broader issue for me is how is the executive branch including the DOD/DOW doing and how does it sit with the Gospel and prophetic guidance.” Jun 14, 08:17
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “Yes, fair point and thanks for the clarification. I guess my point is that I think the honest version of the “are Mormons Christians” question probably has to grapple with whether adding the Book of Mormon as canonized scripture and practicing polygamy for 50+ years puts the Church in a categorically different position than Baptists and Catholics arguing about papal authority. Regardless, it still doesn’t follow that the DOD list was anything other than cynically motivated and divisive.” Jun 14, 07:48
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “That’s a fair point, Chad, and a better way to look at it.” Jun 14, 07:42
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: ““It’s apparently better for no one to be Christian, than for Mormons to be Christians.” You’re not wrong that there are undertones of that here, but I also would note that including the Church as Christian is still the government getting involved in deciding who is or isn’t a Christian, which undermines point one. I think it was the cleanest way to solve the issue, to just drop “Christian” designations as a part of the list.” Jun 13, 22:41
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “John, I think they are two separate issues. Should the Church make exclusive truth claims? I mean, I think it should, but some people disagree. Should other people accept that members of the Church are Christians? Again, I think they should. But when outsiders disagree, I’ve never seen them bring up the Church’s truth claims – it’s always the Trinity, new scripture, prophets, etc. As far as I can tell, it’s only in intramural discussion where the two issues get linked. And I think the linkage is illogical. Claiming exclusive authority is entirely unrelated to the question of who is and isn’t a Christian. I don’t mean to defend DezNat. It was a stupid group doing stupid things, with the mistaken idea that it’s okay to be jerks online. But I can’t tell that they ever promoted any actual Christian Nationalist ideas (although that may have changed at some point), and I suspect their name was patterned on sports fandoms – like “Badger Nation” or “Schooner Nation.” Lots of things I don’t know, though, so please let me know if I’m mistaken about this. RLD, the tension between creedal conformity and inner religious experience is one of those things that bounces back and forth in Christianity over the centuries, and I can see the value in both sides. Orthodoxy without personal conversion is sterile, while spiritual experience without doctrinal guidance can quickly go off the rails. So I don’t object to creeds as statements of belief, and their actual content is often compatible with our own doctrine – not accepting a creed often gets interpreted as rejecting the content of a creed, when the situation actually requires much more careful parsing. It’s logical to decide that we’re not good Catholics or Presbyterians because of failure to accept various creeds as authoritative, but as you suggest, the logic of making our status as Christians dependent on that isn’t working for me.” Jun 13, 20:41
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “We need to acknowledge that the creeds are important to other churches. Our Articles of Faith are descriptive (“we believe”) and we encourage our young people to memorize them so they learn about their faith. The creeds are confessional (“I believe”) and to recite them means something. My wife is a convert and had to memorize “all the creeds” (her words) for her Methodist confirmation. The implication was that she was welcome to join the congregation because she believed those things. That’s not to agree that they should be so important. When the Lord told Joseph Smith that the creeds were an abomination, I doubt he meant the content of the creeds, but rather the undue focus Christianity put on them, even killing over them at times. I also blame them for reducing “faith” to “willingness to agree with particular truth claims,” something we haven’t entirely overcome in the Church. I have no interest in being accepted into the club of “Christian Churches.” If they’d say we’re not “Creedal Christians” I’d cheerfully agree. But “Christian” has a plain English meaning that has nothing to do with creeds, and to insist that I’m not a Christian denies my relationship with my Savior. The label “Christian Nationalism” generates more heat than light, but a lot of Church members are just fine with what the Trump administration has done to weaken the separation between church and state. I wish it were true that “Mormons are finally discovering that they’ll get left out in the cold under Christian Nationalism.” But I completely agree that the Church as an institution and its leadership are fighting against it (I especially loved 14a). I don’t believe for a moment that having a constitutional scholar as prophet in the present moment is a coincidence, any more than having a doctor as prophet during the pandemic was a coincidence. Side note: if you don’t want to fight wars in the Middle East, the time to object is when someone who literally has “Deus Vult” tattooed on his body is appointed as “Secretary of War.”” Jun 13, 19:44
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: ““DezNat” was based on sports fandom, not Christian Nationalism.” I cannot find anything to back up this claim. Here are a couple of news articles that give a different point of view. They were the closest to neutral descriptions I could find. Which is not at all close to positive or complimentary. . https://www.abc4.com/news/local-news/deseret-nation-alt-right-mormon-militants-or-twitter-truth-defenders/ https://kutv.com/news/2news-investigates/deznat-users-say-theyre-defending-the-church-those-they-target-say-its-not-christ-like Other than this silliness, I very much appreciated the post.” Jun 13, 17:02
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “Jonathan, I’m not going to post a link, but check out the Wikipedia article on DezNat. I think you are mistaken.” Jun 13, 16:51
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “Agree with the point that Christians have been calling each other apostate and denying each other’s validity for centuries. But our claim is exclusive restoration: not just “we’re right and you are wrong” but “we alone hold the keys and authority that make our ordinances the only valid ordinances.” I think this is a much stronger claim than most intramural Christian disputes, and it does create some awkwardness in the Church now asking to be welcomed into a tent it has historically said it alone was authorized to pitch.” Jun 13, 15:39
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “E., “DezNat” was based on sports fandom, not Christian Nationalism, and doesn’t seem to be a thing anymore. They are not missed. As far as the surveys, a lot of that research is, frankly, garbage. A lot of it is based on survey questions that amount to people wanting to vote for politicians who share their values, or want the their values to be more influential on a national scale. The actually concerning stuff, like limiting voting rights or citizenship, is much less common. John, other Christian denominations are able to reject one another’s authority and key doctrines without denying their Christian belonging. I think they can manage it with us, too. Last L., thanks, I hadn’t heard of Kai Schwimmer. I hope he enjoyed having two apostles tell every member of the Church in the U.S. during weekly meetings that his views are totally wrong. It can be repeated as necessary.” Jun 13, 13:16
