- E on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “Sometimes people are severely mentally ill and feeling they have been commanded to do terrible things is part of their psychosis. I think people like Daybell, Hildebrandt, and Ballard are probably NOT suffering from severe mental illness (ie psychosis) but they are psychopaths. They manipulate and deceive. All three were trusted by church leaders and portrayed themselves in ways that fellow Latter-day Saints saw them as spiritual giants. In fact their image in church circles was part of how they were able to continue committing crimes for so long. In the cases of Hildebrandt and Ballard at least, they were investigated by state authorities and action was taken against Hildebrandt’s license. This was seen as them being persecuted by The World because they chose to follow Christ.” Jan 4, 15:32
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “I do see Mormonism as a wonderful community, but are Daybell, Hildebrandt, and Tim Ballard simply unfortunate side effects of our generally very good community? How often does one read about a parent who kills his or her children, or some other atrocity, and claiming voices in their heads told them to do so? Isn’t this a human problem, and not a Mormon problem? Listening to our leaders and therapists ARE generally good things, but I’m not sure they are absolutely foolproof. I agree that these are not foolproof.” Jan 4, 15:20
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “Stephen: I think you might have two separate topics here. The first issue involves people who feel like spiritual experiences are leading them to do extreme and terrible things. It’s that case where I would argue that the institutional and community guardrails are effective ways to stop people from doing terrible things. The deviant visionaries are not in fact in precisely the same situation as Nephi standing over Laban and wondering what to do – if they’re church members, then they have community practices and official teachings and local leaders to steer them back on course. The real problems occur when people ignore all those guardrails. And I’d also add that church leaders can be especially effective for this in a way that any other responsible adult can’t, because a deviant visionary frames the problem in religious terms, and needs an answer within that religious framework. See also the numerous clergy members who have persuaded parishioners to turn themselves in for various crimes – that’s not something that another person would be able to do in many of those cases. The second, separate question seems to be how to protect the community from people who claim visionary (or even just scriptural) support for extreme positions. Making clear who has official Church sanction and who doesn’t seems important, as does being careful about who you hand a platform to. But some of those invited guest speakers can address important topics (like the practicing psychologist who came to talk about youth mental health in a meeting for parents in my Rexburg stake around 2012), so a blanket ban doesn’t seem like the right approach (and I don’t know to what extent that would apply to any of the people under discussion here).” Jan 4, 15:13
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “Stephen, Of course you’re right that most folks out there would agree with the basic counsel against doing anything horrific. But just to add: for those who struggle with compulsion an authoritative voice can be very powerful in dispelling OCD in certain instances. It might be one’s therapist who has that kind of authority in one’s life. For me, an apostle’s counsel can be very powerful in helping me to find balance in my mind. And so sometimes, it isn’t so much the counsel per se that’s important as it is who’s giving it–because I think even the folks themselves who suffer from OCD are able to discern between what is horrific and what isn’t. A kid may know the commandment “thou shalt not steal” — but it’s only when his father comes down on him that he stops the reckless behavior. What they need are the penalties or — as is the case with most good folks who struggle with compulsion –the *permissions* to disabuse themselves of the compulsion.” Jan 4, 12:24
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “But as I think about this, maybe Jonathan has the point that when it comes to ugly acts like child abuse and even killing one’s kids, the motive isn’t that important. Child abuse is not uncommon; doing so because one feel commanded by the spirit is uncommon. I think what happens is that stories by Daybell and Hildebrandt are quite horrifying and thus get a lot of attention, which is understandable. And I hope it’s understandable that because these cases are Mormon, it seems worth talking about on the blog. And I’d also point out that many of us could share stories about people they’ve observed doing questionable or kooky things claiming the spirit’s command. Ultimately, the Hildebrandt story felt concerning and was definitely food for thought.” Jan 4, 10:28
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “Jonathan and ji, I brought up the bigger issue of our leaders claiming church leadership as a guard against problematic spiritual experiences. Yes, they would have told Daybell not to kill his kids but so would all other humans if asked for their advice on that question. Any conferring with other people would have advised Daybell against such an action. I do think that the Tim Ballard issue does complicate claims that church leaders will be a guard against all problematic claims of the spirit. My understanding is that Ballard had a lot of support from the church and that it was law enforcement and the press that blew the whistle on Ballard before the church. Similarly, it was the cops who busted Hildebrand. I don’t mean that as a criticism of our church, only that it appears to me that I don’t see church leaders as the absolute fix of problematic spiritual promptings.” Jan 4, 09:33
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “Jonathan, I’m making a very specific hypothesis, and not claiming that Mormon are particularly dangerous. I do recall someone (Stephen C.) noting Mormons having lower crime rates and I’m not disputing that. This issue are instances of people feeling commanded by God through the spirit to engage in acts the rest of the society deemed criminal (apparently Daybell and Hildebrant didn’t see their acts as wrong). This is rare, but I think we may have some indication of Mormons doing this more often than the society as a whole. I’m curious if you see evidence to the contrary. And I have stressed that my study of the topic strongly indicate the general good of people who feel they are following the spirit. My only point is that these alternate instances are troubling and do seem to be disproportionately Mormon.” Jan 4, 09:26
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “Lemming, yes, lots concerning about Ballard, but some of these cases do suggests people can be sincere and do terrible things. Jack, again, advising mentally ill people from doing something horrific is something most people would notice and advise. REC, prayers for you family and daughter. jared, I think these cases were people raised in the church, and the church does stress very strongly following the spirit. I wondering if there are some instances where that is problematic. PWS, yes, a complicated issue.” Jan 4, 08:32
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “The best time to ask your bishop if you should murder someone is definitely before committing the murder, so I still don’t see your point. What, specifically, are you talking about? Did Daybell go to the bishops of multiple wards and tell them the world was imminently ending, and they thought he was definitely right? Because that doesn’t sound like something that happened.” Jan 4, 08:22
- on Spiritual Experiences Going off the Rails: “Jonathan, I clearly wrote before the murders.” Jan 4, 03:30
