- Lily on CFM 12/15-12/21(The Family): Poetry for “The Family Is Central to the Creator’s Plan”: “ji: I like your perspective. I have always thought the phrase “salvation is an individual matter, exaltation is a family matter”, was doctrinally incorrect. If an individual accepts the gospel, they will be exalted, whether their parents, children or spouse accepted it or not.” Dec 9, 14:07
- on When We Are Proselytized by Others: “As a typical member of the Church in Latin America, I interact daily with people of other religions. I have interacted with Jehovah’s Witnesses and, remembering my time as a missionary, I have been as cordial and attentive as possible to their message, although I make it clear to them that I actively participate in a religious congregation with my family. My children study at an evangelical school, and my daughter even participated in the Methodist choir in middle school and knew all their songs. She also sang PFJ songs to them during their religious activities. I work at a Catholic university and have very interesting conversations about religion. Obviously, I cannot proselytize there. In that same spirit, there are many things that other religions do much better than we do, in worship, Sunday school, the way they treat visitors… I think that if we interacted more with other religions, we would improve many things about how we do things. It is interesting to have theological conversations with people of other religions, not to convert to another faith, but to learn and share experiences. When there is time, of course.” Dec 9, 12:04
- on When We Are Proselytized by Others: “I’ll go a step further than Turtle. I have lived in several states outside the Mormon corridor and been not just surprised, but somewhat disappointed at the lack of proselytizing by my friends and neighbors of other faiths. I may not have a sincere interest in changing religions, but I am genuinely curious about other traditions and would welcome greater engagement with my community, with more opportunities for friendship and service. When I lived in Virginia, a contractor we hired for some home renovations mentioned that he was the music minister for a non-denominational Christian church down the street. I don’t recall whether he extended an invitation or if I asked to know more, but my family and I attended their Christmas Eve candlelight service, and it became a family tradition that I looked forward to every year. I would have gladly accepted more invitations to fellowship with that group, which included several other families in our neighborhood. I have also accepted and enjoyed Passover meals and bat mitzvah services with Jewish friends, Diwali celebrations with Hindu neighbors, and conversations with a Community of Christ coworker. My daughter regularly attends Jesus Club at her high school. I think our church is often too insular and would greatly benefit from frequent organized activities or service projects with other faith groups — especially our youth groups. Interfaith outreach should not be a vehicle for proselytizing, but a means to build trust and mutual respect with others in our communities. And who knows? Maybe if we show more interest in others, they will show more interest in us and want to know more.” Dec 9, 10:58
- on When We Are Proselytized by Others: “Off-topic, but since it came up: In my area, I have been very impressed with how the young missionaries interact with individuals in parking lots. I have seen them in action several times. The missionaries are up front about who they are, they ask if the individual they are greeting has time to talk, they are brief, and their invitation is simple. The missionaries are unfailingly polite, and they don’t stay in any one parking lot for very long. This may not be true in all areas, but it is true here. The missionaries here are doing good.” Dec 9, 10:57
- on When We Are Proselytized by Others: “Having served a mission myself, I treat them as I would have wanted to be treated, which is to be kind at the door, but politely tell them I’m not interested. I’m going to have to do that at some point anyway, so I might as well do it at the beginning and not waste anybody’s time. The only people that have ever proselyted me have been the JWs. Except a random born-again Christian woman who accosted me while walking home from the store at age 10. I really don’t think it’s appropriate for any adult to do that to a child, no matter what good motive they might have.” Dec 9, 10:24
- on When We Are Proselytized by Others: “I used to live across the street from a Kingdom Hall. I couple times of year the JWs would stop by, usually to invite us to an Easter thing. (Essentially the only holiday they celebrate.) They were, without exception, polite, friendly and pleasant. My goal in interacting with others who are proselytizing is to be the kind of contact that I generally wanted to meet when I was a missionary: kind on a personal level, but also honest. I served in a mission where it was pretty easy to ask nicely and get people to let us into their homes and listen to us. They’d give positive responses to all sorts of invitations to read the BoM, come to church and have additional visits. Very regularly, they didn’t want any of that, they just didn’t want to tell us no. Ironically, while I had friends on missions who were having 99% of doors shut in their face, I was teaching lots of discussions and wishing for more honesty from our “investigators”. While I don’t mind theological discussions, I don’t have the time or interest in meeting regularly with people from other churches as they try to convert me. So I tell them that, even as I sincerely wish them well in their efforts. If their message can bring someone more joy and peace in their lives, then they are doing good.” Dec 9, 09:18
- on When We Are Proselytized by Others: “I’ve been surprised that I don’t get proselytized by others much (I live outside the Mormon Corridor). The occasional visits at the door by JW, but they’re always very respectful and polite and I’m always left with a good impression after these encounters. However, I am stopped by our own missionaries…constantly. And I find them incredibly annoying and insensitive. It’s always an intrusive invitation to attend Church. Not a “hello”, not an effort to engage, just “Do you want to come to Church on Sunday”, over and over (this seems to be a thing now in many missions). They’ll stand in front of subway doors and accost people when they’re trying to exit. I’ve seen them standing at the bottom of escalators, really interfering with those trying to get off. They impeded me once while I was out for a run, stepping into my path and forcing me to stop. Whatever, they’re annoying and clueless 18 year-olds following the instructions of some misguided Mission President. But it is causing problems in my community as those who know I am a member are expressing their frustration about it. So, the missionaries are making us look bad! Anyway, I guess my point is that my experiences being proselytized by Witnesses in my community are leaving me with more positive feelings than experiences being proselytized by our own representatives.” Dec 9, 09:10
- on Is “Godhead Incarnate” False Doctrine? Reclaiming John Rutter’s Candlelight Carol for LDS Theology: “For me, this has been a fascinating and informative discussion. Thanks, Chad and everybody. One question that comes to mind as I read these posts is: What do people mean by “worship”? Some people say we pray to the Father through the Son, but we only “worship” the Father. Meaning . . . what? There are associated verbs here: admire, revere, praise. Surely, even by the stricter theological view, we can admire, revere, and praise Jesus? But not “worship” him? Again, meaning . . . what? (Other Christians have sometimes faced a similar question with respect to icons, which can be “venerated” but not “worshipped.” What exactly is the difference?) Off the top of my head, I can imagine two possible responses for us (and I’m not suggesting that these are exhaustive). One is that although we can speak through and thus presumably to the Son, when we ask for help– for blessings– we are directing these requests only to the Father. But this seems unlikely. Why can’t we ask for help from anyone but the Father? Here on earth, we ask for help from lots of people. Is there some reason why we can’t do that just because people have died? The more likely response, probably, is that “worship” means to treat someone as God, and that is appropriate only for the Father. But this in itself is a contestable proposition, to say the least, and it also raises the further question: What do we mean by “God”? In orthodox (small “o”) Christian theology, I take it that “God” would refer to the uncreated Being for whom essence and existence coincide (“I Am that I Am”), so that there could only be one such Being: monotheism is built into the understanding of what God is. But if we don’t accept any of that, then I’m not sure what it would mean to say that we should worship only the Father in the sense of treating only Him as God.” Dec 9, 08:52
- on Is “Godhead Incarnate” False Doctrine? Reclaiming John Rutter’s Candlelight Carol for LDS Theology: “I guess I see it more as “monotheism on hard mode” than outright rejection. I confess that I’m not super invested in the details of how the square gets circled, because there’s always going to be some unresolved tension (so I don’t object strongly to someone else’s trinitarian creed, but I do think it’s silly when those creeds get held up as the standard of what defines a Christian). I do think it’s worth the effort, though, because it seems like an inevitable consequence of giving up on monotheism is to drift towards overt polytheism and open the door for people to say, for example: I reject the Father’s stifling commandments and demand for strict obedience; I will instead worship the loving Holy Ghost, who understands me and fully accepts me for who I am. With a commitment to monotheism, however explained, you can make clear that the same God both loves you and calls for strict obedience. Without it, it seems like the problem of sin and the need for a savior quickly breaks down. (But “godhead incarnate” really is okay to sing.)” Dec 9, 06:25
- on Is “Godhead Incarnate” False Doctrine? Reclaiming John Rutter’s Candlelight Carol for LDS Theology: “I think there’s room for interpretation on that one, Jonathan. From my perspective, we believe in and potentially worship three gods, not one, so by definition, we’re trithistic, not monotheistic. As Joseph Smith put it, “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!” While I think the statement that he always declared that might be a stretch, it’s a pretty clear rejection of monotheism. But I do know there are ways within our religion to square that circle and make room for that belief. One reason I personally lean towards the position REC911 is articulating is that it is a way to maintain a form of monotheism by saying that God the Father is the one God we follow and worship. And there’s always the thought that the Godhead as a council is a unit, and that unit is our One God (though I personally feel like that one starts getting into the same “have your cake and eat it too” territory as Trinitarianism).” Dec 8, 22:21
