- Jonathan Green on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “I agree with the principle of Stephen’s post, as he’s addressing the general principle. Although it cuts the other way too: A slowdown in church growth is predominantly about macro-scale demographic trends and secularization, and not your particular policy preferences or historical questions. And there’s a difference between new program fatigue and cheap cynicism. It seems reasonable that the minimum number of times someone must attend church before baptism should be greater than zero, and for that number to be set by the local mission rather than church headquarters. Don’t confuse a policy choice with a new program for the sake of innovation. Our temple is one of the newer, smaller temples that’s only open a few days a week. And it’s awesome, because we only have to drive 2.5 hours each way instead of 4 hours, and I will not dismiss it as a vanity project. People complain that we never get any new revelation, but when the prophets speak, they hate it and spend decades trying to make them take it back.” Feb 26, 09:52
- on Will the Community of Christ Die Off?: “The CoC Temple is now only open on Thursdays from 9am-4pm. They used to be open 6-7 days a week. The grounds have deteriorated considerably- the parking lot is a mess and the landscape has been severely neglected. It’s tragic. Independence itself is in shocking midwest rust-belt decay. Most of the surrounding CoC buildings are rarely staffed/open for the public and are in disrepair. Each time I’ve visited, I have observed unhoused persons and persons experiencing substance addition in the downtown. Unpopular opinion: Maybe we (LDS) shouldn’t be building hundreds of such high-maintenance temples across the world- each susceptible to a myriad of unforeseen and uncontrollable circumstances, including our own economic solvency in generations to come. Maybe a better way would be to create Shinto or Buddhist like Gardens as our temples. They would be 100% integrated in nature and relevant when curated and visited, but ultimately- just nature. These gardens would be appreciated and tended in the moment as an act of devotion and sacredness. We could spend the left-over money on the poor and the sick. Side note, we’re building a new temple in Maui, where such an outdoor temple would be absolutely perfect. But our new temple will be a cold-climate granite implant on a tropical clime and an environmental catastrophe. But we must cling to our French rococo velveted tufts, air conditioning, nursing home conveniences, and giant parking lots dotted with suburban shrubbery a la the malls and shopping centers. It’s a major burden to maintain. And, I would rather keep the integrity of my family, my descendants, my people, than rely on and encourage the lifestyles and ethics of the mega-rich. That wealth does not materialize out of thin air. I’m aware that the church frequently says that money, success and power aren’t necessarily evil and can be righteously obtained and used. But, the ultra rich (which we idolize) are part of a disturbing global economic system that is directly connected to real human consequences. So, one of the wealthiest and most famous Saints from the ‘Mormon Moment’ famously enriched himself using his private equity firm. He walked away with massive profits while workers, families and communities absorbed the damage. Another famous political Saint has been so pressured into obtaining political power and legacy, that he traded constitutional originalism for political opportunism. He enables horrid leaders in to climb the ladder. Together they execute extremely concerning and repetitive constitutional breeches. And, let’s not even get started with the lifestyles of the LDS Desperate Housewives of SL and the McMansion ilk throughout the valley and across the world. It’s not worth asking our fellow saints and family members to aspire to succeed in those environments, to idolize and praise those who do (and in doing so, lose integrity.) Swimming in those waters is revolting and dangerous. Maintenance comes at a high cost. I find no shame in Emma’s people and their humble financial losses and dwindling numbers. There are worse ways to die.” Feb 26, 09:32
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “This reminds me of a short conversation I had while bishop with a man who’d been my first counselor, but because he’d served in so many bishoprics (I didn’t know that because I’d only been in the ward 5 months when they called me as bishop) the SP made me promise I’d release him after 1.5 years. I released him after 9 months so I felt ahead of schedule. This conversation was probably just a little before the pandemic so at a time when there were lots of big changes at the beginning of President Nelson’s presidency. These were presented as continuing revelation and accompanied by the phrase “the Restoration is ongoing.” Anyway, in the hall, the former 1c pulled me aside and said a little under his breath as though this was a point he’d been musing on. “Do you think that if the leaders claim revelation for so many thing, then the members might …” I then filled in what I thought he was getting at, “We’ll get ‘revelation fatigue’?” “Yeah,” he said. He dropped out during the pandemic. Maybe I called him into one too many bishoprics. :(” Feb 26, 09:01
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “In a previous ward, the bishipbric was sincerely trying to implement and follow through with new programs and initiatives, but it felt like they were becoming consumed by that preoccupation at the expense of basic spiritual needs. They told speakers to focus on whatever the latest and greatest program was each week, and sacrament meetings in the ward started feeling like a never-ending series of sales pitches and testimonials for programs. I stopped feeling like I was getting anything out of the meetings, since they were worshipping the programs of the Church instead of anything deeper.” Feb 26, 08:49
- on What Did Church Lead You to Think About Yesterday, 2/22?: “Kent: The good I got out of it was a reminder that I love the ministering program as I can tell my ministers that I will call them if I ever need them. I love that one family does not want me to do anything and the other I take to lunch! I love that ministering is to the world and not just my assigned members in my ward. (my thing, not the church’s) Thanks for asking and pointing out that I am guilty of complaining which is clearly not the intention of this post. (I am being serious) I will repent. Having said that….Can someone start a post about Ministering vs HT here so I can really complain?? :) I will start with ministering interviews….” Feb 26, 08:01
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “I hope that we as a church are finally cresting with respect to trying to incorporate corporate strategies into a religious effort – just to further riff on the mission anecdotes, beyond setting numerical goals regarding contacting as a shorthand way to help missionaries get out of their shell, I am glad that by and large no mission seems to be pushing baptism numerical goals on the companionship level anymore. Or perhaps I’m crazy and that is still common – but to my knowledge, it seems to be blanket policy to not set goals over things that are well within others’ agency, and choosing to get baptized is certainly that! I served my mission in Europe, and a very secularized country at that, so the changes overall come as no surprise to me. I didn’t baptize a single person, yet I still prize my mission as such a wonderful, focused experience. To me the closest to that is the temple, where people are all generally there for similar reasons so the unity of focus feels similar. We never taught the lessons verbatim even with the pre-Preach my Gospel days (it rolled out halfway or later in my mission). We were encouraged to memorize the lessons, but that was so that we would at least have that level of language to draw on! I really do feel like the best “program” is to try to help each member the best we can, and let the consequences follow. But I am also very much personality-wise the kind of person who would (1) hate to push a book of mormon on someone in a cab, and (2) would hate to be the recipient of that kind of push – I wouldn’t trust it! I very much need to know that the person trying to proselyte me (aka trying to sell me something) is a trusted person I know already, and especially know or can glean their ultimate intentions.” Feb 26, 07:33
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “The church leadership is all about new programs and catch phrases as the members eat it up. Pres Nelson was a “build a legacy” leader. Nelson was also a “go do this” leader and not a “do you think we should” leader. All human nature and fine and I am sure he (Nelson) felt good about his changes. It was my mission, 100 years ago, that I found out that the church was into “programs” to get baptisms. We had what we called “The 14 day Miracle Program.” Meet to baptism in 14 days. The investigator had to attend church once and get all 7 (?) lessons to be baptized in those 14 days. I believed they used the word “miracle” as it was one if they stayed active. I have seen countless mission gimmicks oops programs since then and there will be lots more. There is a mission (foreign) right now that requires investigators to attend church 9 times before they can be baptized. No idea if this is HQ policy or local well-meaning leaders. I chuckle at 9. Why not 8 or 10? I hear they do it to help these converts stay active. It must be going well as they had the police visit last sunday to break up a fight between members. (I am not making this up) I remember the general conference where a well meaning (I think) apostle who was introducing a new program called “Preach My Gospel” was throwing the “memorized lessons” way of doing things under the bus. At that change, the church went from knowing exactly what the investigator was being taught to not knowing what they were being taught. The new way was awful at first as the youth didn’t know how to teach in their own words! Raise the bar was the new program which included having youth teach classes before they left. I think it works pretty good now after all these years. One last comment….anyone else remember that Pres Nelson was teasing a new program that was going to involve “all” the members in the “next GC” only to have covid happen and nothing came from it?? Or am I making this up….?” Feb 26, 07:18
- on What Did Church Lead You to Think About Yesterday, 2/22?: “Hmmm, I wonder if anyone reads the op? Vic, was there no way to think about what you heard that gave you a new or different or inspiring perspective? Or can you see what could be done to help others in your congregation feel like they can share their actual struggles? Jonathan, who is responsible for your reaction to the talks? Unless I misunderstand what you’re saying, you are putting all the responsibility on those giving the talks and no responsibility on yourself for what you get out of them. RLD: that’s wonderful. My wife also works in academia and has gone through similar uncertainty. Our family has some choice words for the morals of some prominent individuals. I’m glad you found some comfort. REC911: ok, you’ve complained, now what? How do you get something good out of that lesson in spite of your disagreement? I like what Richard Rohr suggested about complaining: The best response to something wrong is the practice of something better. So what is the “practice” that any of you will do to make your own lives and those of others better?” Feb 25, 19:28
- on Will the Community of Christ Die Off?: “JTB noted: “There’s a great interview on Gospel Tangents with their new President where she discusses the fiscal issues. Individuals can choose where to donate their tithes, to their local congregation or the “head church,” and more and more people are choosing to just donate locally.” I suspect this is simply the same suspicion of large corporations that is prevalent in the west today. If you are suspicious of corporations you tend to focus locally. The LDS Church’s structure avoids this—tithing and expenditures are all centralized, which means that if you are suspicious of the corporation you don’t donate at all. The CofC’s structure makes it more vulnerable to the current situation, but lets it capture the donations locally. I don’t know, but I think it’s possible, and perhaps even likely, that this attitude will change. But I have no idea how or when. It might be a good idea for the CofC to change its structure. Or that could be the worst response. That is true for the LDS Church as well. We may be structured exactly wrong for whatever comes next. Making projections based on the current situation often doesn’t work. The one thing I am sure of is that the situation and the motivations for that situation will be different — so the op’s assumption that the CofC will continue to loose members is just that, an assumption. Trends change over time. Since the underlying causes have to do with the attitudes and perceptions of people, I doubt we can know for sure. Predicting the future is impossible.” Feb 25, 19:04
- on The “Radical” 1948 Hymnal: How We Got Our Solemn Sound: “My mother-in-law, now 85 years old, grew up in a ward where Tracy Cannon was not only a Tabernacle organist but also a ward organist. I learned this when I mentioned one of his hymns to her a couple years ago, and she let me know her fondness for his hymns and playing.” Feb 25, 14:04
