- Jack on Delighting in bloodshed: “I don’t know, Jonathan. As I say, I’m not sure about Trump’s tactics–but boy when we consider the scale of the drug wars in Mexico, Central and South America, the Philippines, and other places–and I’m talking about actual murders now, not ODs–it’s truly staggering. And I disagree about Trump’s message being unclear. Trump is a wild card. Who knows when he might send a stealth bomber your way.” Dec 13, 09:53
- on Delighting in bloodshed: “El Oso: Comparing Trump to Moroni doesn’t work at all. Trump lacks Moroni’s physical courage and commitment to truth and righteousness at any cost. There is simply no point of resemblance between them. Fortunately we have another Book of Mormon figure who is a near-perfect match: King Noah. They both lead lives of iniquity and immorality, love luxury and flattery, and are vengeful and deeply corrupt. And Trump’s effect on the spiritual lives of the people and the strength of the country he presides over is very similar to that of King Noah.” Dec 13, 04:42
- on Delighting in bloodshed: “Jack, murdering low-level drug smugglers while pardoning Ulbricht and Hernandez doesn’t send that message at all. And again: Sending a message by murdering people is horrific. It’s not a gray area or pushing the border, it’s a sin that will damn everyone involved. Terrorists commit acts of terror to achieve strategic or political ends. Words mean things. Drug smugglers may be horrible criminals who deserve punishment through the criminal justice system, but they are not terrorists. We do not execute drug dealers when they are tried and arrested in the U.S. We did not execute the Sackler family for earning billions from pushing Oxycontin; they got off with a fine. And in any case the drug responsible for most overdose deaths in the U.S. is fentanyl, which is not typically produced in Venezuela or transported through the Caribbean.” Dec 13, 04:25
- on Delighting in bloodshed: ““Bombing boats does nothing that sending the Coast Guard couldn’t have accomplished…” I agree in terms of the mechanics involved in capturing culprits and securing the goods. But what the coastguard can’t do is send a clear message to those in power that if you keep doing this we’re going to send a missile right down your chimney. In saying that I’m not suggesting that that’s the best way to handle the situation–I don’t know. But I think the message is clear: My guess is that by now Trump has these guys looking over their collective shoulder–and that in and of itself is a good thing, IMO. Re: “actual terrorists”: I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this particular point. Drugs have killed around a million people (more or less) over the last twenty years in the U.S. alone–not to mention the number of lives that have been ruined by them. Now I don’t want to do a “tit for tat” comparison between drug deaths and terrorist deaths. Even so, while I’m not sure how I feel about Trump’s tactics I have to say that I can’t disagree with his categorization of drug lords and their henchmen as terrorists.” Dec 13, 01:27
- on Delighting in bloodshed: “Jack, making a statement doesn’t justify killing 80 people (so far). If you need a Republican to convince you, see what Rand Paul has said. Bombing boats does nothing that sending the Coast Guard couldn’t have accomplished, and the Coast Guard can in addition collect intelligence and identify any innocent parties, such as human trafficking victims. Joe Biden largely put an end to the use of drones for killing people in the Middle East. Did you notice? While the Obama administration had its foreign policy failures, the situation was not comparable because there were actual terrorists and congressional authorization. And critically for us, we weren’t being fed drone strikes as propaganda and asked to applaud.” Dec 12, 22:14
- on Delighting in bloodshed: “Morgan, the Germans I know don’t think the analogy is strained at all. They wonder why it’s taking us so long to notice what’s happening. Take a look at the kinds of political parties our government is now supporting in Europe. From a distance, it’s easy to assume they’re just traditional conservative parties who want to reduce immigration, but they’re not. Their advertising and political rhetoric is crassly racist and fascist. Alma 48:11 informs us that “Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed.” I don’t think Moroni would murder 80 Lamanites who were 1000 miles away from Zarahemla at the time, and the Lamanites regularly waged actual war on the Nephites. Words like “terrorist” have particular meanings, and a “terrorist” is not someone who imports a product that millions of Americans are eager to buy. We are not in a state of war, there is no congressional authorization to use force, and no acts of terrorism have been committed. The Coast Guard regularly arrests drug smugglers. To kill smugglers without warning in this situation is simply murder. There’s also the unresolvable paradox of our military killing low-level smugglers without warning, while the president just pardoned the second leader of a massive drug-running operation (first Ross Ulbricht, now Juan Orlando Hernández). If we’re letting the leaders off scot-free but killing the people on boats, the claim of self-defense collapses. It’s just murder.” Dec 12, 22:02
- on Delighting in bloodshed: “There are plenty of reasons to rejoice in the Trump administration’s changes in policies from a humanitarian and law and order basis. Violent crime, including murder, is way down in our federal capitol where the President has the most influence. As noted by Jack above, the violent drug gangs are being addressed on multiple fronts, including by our military. The congressional approval for this type of action was passed unanimously in the senate and with only one opposing vote in the house, not exactly an illegal military use. As also noted above, Obama did much worse than the current actions from Trump that you are complaining about. Also, Maduro lost the last election in Venezuela by all impartial accounts. The lawfully elected President of Venezuela has praised Donald Trump as she was in Oslo to receive her Nobel peace prize. The Trump administration provided aid to get her there. I do not remember any major actions that the Biden administration took to help the democratically elected leader of our former ally. So who is better upholding democracy here? On the whole, President Trump is more in line with Captain Moroni, than with the 4th century Nephites.” Dec 12, 21:50
- on Delighting in bloodshed: “Mortimer, I think the apostles have spoken out several times recently about anger and media. In any case, I don’t think being mad at nonpolitical institutions for being nonpolitical accomplishes anything at the moment. Omelas is a great story, but it doesn’t work as social critique because we can’t actually walk away. Our society is build on top of a thousand different injustices, and we should be working to make society less unjust. But there really aren’t any better large-scale alternatives out there, and for now the only option is to try to make things better where we are.” Dec 12, 21:47
- on Delighting in bloodshed: “Morgan, the United States fought actual Nazis during WWII, and even in that bloody and nightmarish war, we taught U.S. service members the basics of the law of war and did our best to ensure compliance. Most of the time you can kill the enemy wherever you find him; however there are situations where the enemy is not a lawful target. Examples include airmen who have bailed out and shipwrecked sailors. A real world example of the latter was the Royal Navy taking pains to rescue over 100 German survivors of the sinking of the Bismarck. They didn’t simply machine-gun them just because they were the enemy. Assuming for the sake of the argument that these traffickers are combatants, once their boat is destroyed and they’re floating in the ocean unable to flee or fight, they are “hors de combat” (French for “out of combat”) and no longer lawful targets. They can of course become lawful targets again if they continue to attempt to fight/resist/flee despite their circumstances (e.g., shooting at a rescue boat). This is why everyone wants to see the footage. Were the traffickers still resisting or fleeing after the initial strike or were they simply trying not to drown?” Dec 12, 20:01
- on Delighting in bloodshed: “Jonathan, you just might be my favorite commenter on the blogs–but I think you’re probably overdoing it a bit with this OP. you say: “No less than Triumph of the Will, these videos are invitations to be part of the winning side.” However true that might be, I’m fairly certain that those videos are also a warning to other countries and cartels that we’ve had it with the illicit drug industry. 100,000 people die every year in the U.S. by overdose of illegal drugs–not to mention the untold number of folks suffering from addiction. The toll in terms of life, sorrow, and resources, is astronomical. And then if we consider the toll that’s being taken on the whole of North and South America–even the entire planet–what kind of damage are really looking at? It’s nightmarish. Also, why I agree that in theory everyone who isn’t an enemy combatant should get a fair trial–I have to say that the drug operations of Central and South America are for all intents and purposes modern Gadianton Robbers. These areas of the world are considered to be the most “murderous” on the planet–and it’s primarily because of the dirty business of the gangs and cartels in those regions. Even as we speak another country–Equador–is beginning to go they way of Venezuela, Columbia, Honduras, and other countries practically run by drug lords. And so I’m not entirely against the Trump administration labelling them “terrorists.” That said–and I know this is not an original question–but I wonder sometimes how our left-leaning friends felt about Obama’s drone strikes. While I ache over the loss of innocent life–what trump is doing doesn’t even come close to the damage that was done to innocents back in Obama’s days. And I mean that irrespective of how one might categorize the actions of either administration. That (and that) said, while I don’t love Trump–and I didn’t vote him–the RINO in me is sometimes awakened the unevenness in reporting on these issues. It all seems to depend on whether or not he’s “our guy.” If he is then he’s doing what must be done–a necessary evil. If he isn’t then he’s doing what Hitler did.” Dec 12, 18:53
