- jader3rd on Vigilance is not panic: “I agree with you Jonathan, that your set of facts are the actual reflection of reality.” Jan 23, 22:55
- on Religion and Health by Attendance: “I suspect Hindu numbers are so small that there’s a lot of noise there.” Jan 23, 19:50
- on Religion and Health by Attendance: “Interesting data. Hindus seem to have quite a disparity between the two datasets, I wonder why. I’m not familiar enough with either dataset to say, but wonder if they’re under represented and it’s just noise. In my experience, health is a very good predictor of weekly attendance among faithful Latter day saints. From the data here, that would seem to hold true among other faiths as well.” Jan 23, 19:42
- on Vigilance is not panic: “The Church’s moral obligation to speak out on an issue doesn’t just depend on the moral gravity of the issue, but also on how much good the Church might accomplish by speaking out, and the negative effects of doing so. That partially (not entirely) explains the Church’s tendency to be more focused on US concerns than, say, speaking out against the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang. The Church knows the Chinese Communist Party couldn’t care less what it thinks of its human rights abuses, and that speaking out on such a topic would accomplish no good and only set back the Church in China.” Jan 23, 16:37
- on Vigilance is not panic: “Anon: We’ve seen over the last few years that what you are proposing – an obligation to condemn every great injustice – has been ineffective and has undermined the missions of the progressive groups that have attempted it. Racism and sexism and the occupation of Gaza and all the rest are bad, but the general condemnation of all these forms of injustice have left the ACLU and the Sierra Club and many other organizations weaker and less effective in accomplishing their missions. If you want someone to speak up for free speech, no questions asked, now you have to turn to FIRE. Would FIRE have to speak up if the government tried to ban a political memoir? Yes, absolutely. Does it have to speak up about the loss of wetlands? No, it has to prioritize, or its witness will be diluted and its effectiveness will be diminished. The Church has to prioritize in the same way. If you want people to speak out for PEPFAR, you do it. (My congressional representatives have been called regarding this issue.) If you want a lot of people to speak out, you can organize it! But, as I’ve said, calling on the Church to issue a statement is not an effective use of your sense of injustice, and being disappointed that the Church doesn’t issue a statement is counterproductive.” Jan 23, 15:32
- on Vigilance is not panic: “Restored C.: If, as you say, all fascism is “Christofascism,” then the term is adding no additional information, so just call it fascism and leave the name of the Savior out of it. If you read to the end of the section, you’ll discover that Bonhoeffer does not say that people can’t be redeemed from stupidity. “The word of the Bible – that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom – says that internal liberation of human beings to a life of responsibility towards God is the only true overcoming of stupidity.” Equating someone with an antichrist is an extreme claim that requires extreme evidence, and you haven’t done the work. We also know from the Book of Mormon what it looks like when prophets confront antichrists, and there’s a lot more teaching of basic doctrine than issuing sweeping statements. Your progression of ideas – Trump is an antichrist, therefore the apostles must renounce and oppose him at every step, which they are not doing, so their authority is diminished – is not useful. It would lead to the conclusion that Abinadi’s martyrdom was too little, too late, because he waited so long to oppose Noah, didn’t confront him directly, and disappeared for years at a time. It seems better to me to make the less extreme claim that the Trump administration is doing many bad things and creating a very difficult environment for the Church, requiring wisdom and prudence in the apostles’ decisions.” Jan 23, 15:14
- on Vigilance is not panic: “Hoosier, You failed to address my questions in your reply. I’ll counter the initial assertion in your reply with a question: Do I have a moral duty to speak out if your child is being abused or assaulted? When I see it or learn of it? I would add that calling others “moral traffic cops” who do speak out hardly constitutes a rational reply. Are church leaders “moral traffic cops” when they do speak out on moral issues? I suppose moral issues would come under the specific church mission of “perfecting the saints.” Sometimes we need to be told what is right and wrong. If we don’t why keep prophets around at all? And yes, “caring for the needy” is a specified church mission, so you choose a poor prooftext to bolster your position in your concluding paragraph.” Jan 23, 14:55
- on Vigilance is not panic: “Anon, I dispute the existence of a moral duty to “speak out” in the first place, and I especially dispute the authority of moral traffic cops who go around dinging people for their failures to signal sufficiently vigorously or accuse with enough specificity. The expansion of modern communications technology and the consequent shrinking of the world mean that the natural boundaries of institutional concern have evaporated. The line must be drawn somewhere – unless every institution really is to become the Protestor of the Current Outrage Who Exceeds His Zealotry of Yesterday – and like all manmade categories it will be arbitrary and artificial. For all that, the categorization remains necessary. “The poor ye will always have with you, but me ye have not always.” Matthew 26:11. So spoke Christ to those enraged when a woman anointed him with oil that could have been sold to feed the poor. The Church has a particular role and a particular mission and I reject the demands made on it by those who wish to borrow what influence it has for their political projects.” Jan 23, 14:29
- on Vigilance is not panic: “Hoosier, I find your critique problematic. It does not necessarily follow that Reformed Cricket does not accept limits to one’s moral obligations or that constant protest is truly the highest form of moral faithfulness. It seems to me that your underlying claim is that moral obligations must be bounded or strictly limited in some fashion for church leaders. But are not church leaders also to speak out on moral issues to all of God’s children? Does not the deaths of nearly one million people constitute a moral issue? Or is the First Presidency and Q12 limited in their mission to the concerns of Latter-day Saints alone?” Jan 23, 14:04
- on Vigilance is not panic: ““We claim and expect foresight from the Prophet and Apostles of the church. Them demonstrating an inability to confront the facts of shared human reality as we all experience it severely undermines their authority. It is also a self-inflicted injury on their part.” Not if you freely reject the absolutist conception of moral duty on which you base this judgment, as I do. Always “speak out” here and “attention and empathy” there, a never ending gyre of moral hostage-taking that permits no tradeoffs, no subsidiarity, no conception of scope or role beyond “Protestor of the Current Outrage Who Exceeds His Zealotry of Yesterday.” I don’t recall Christ spending His time on the horrors of the Roman latifundia or their corrupt system of taxation, maybe He thought that His Kingdom was not of this world or something? “as we all experience it” speak for yourself.” Jan 23, 12:56
