- KLC on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: ““Now President Oaks complains quite often in Conference, etc. how some member parents are not letting their children play with non-member children.” One thing that AI is really good at is giving it a defined data set and asking it to analyze it. I asked Perplexity AI to go to the churches website and look at all of the talks that Dallin Oaks has given in general conference that mentioned nonmember children playing with member children. It could only find a single example, a talk he gave in October 2014. Here is what he said; “Too often non-Mormons here in Utah have been offended and alienated by some of our members who will not allow their children to be friends with children of other faiths. Surely we can teach our children values and standards of behavior without having them distance themselves or show disrespect to any who are different.” So John Tabor, why do you have to make things up to try and make your point? Dallin Oaks hasn’t complained “quite often” in conference about this issue, he mentioned it once 12 years ago. And isn’t what he said exactly what we would want to hear? Why is Oaks the bogeyman here?” Jun 15, 11:52
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “This! This! Our 5th Sunday discussion was led by a retired federal judge in my ward, who’s now temple president and has been stake president, etc. The point I tried to make a few times is that for all the Church’s talk of religious freedom, etc., in Utah there’s an even stricter standard in the state constitution for church-state separation that has basically always been ignored. In 1992, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against prayer at high school graduations. Elder Oaks came right out with an article that quoted David O. McKay that ending school prayer cut the spiritual umbilical cord between schools an students, and said that American tradition had always included public prayer. (Never mind Jesus’s direction to pray in our closets and not make outward public appearances.) Now President Oaks complains quite often in Conference, etc. how some member parents are not letting their children play with non-member children. Gee, I wonder where that started? President Hinckley wanted to have it both ways, between being good to our neighbors (member or non-member) on the one hand, and maintaining the existing church-state Gordian knot on the ground in Utah on the other. To be fair, the folks I crossed paths with at BYU and on my mission had very different views on appropriate church-state separation, depending on whether or not they had grown up in Utah. And Elder M. Russell Ballard came out in General Conference about being good neighbors, and acknowledged that what happens with the Church in Utah is a very small part of the Brethren’s big picture.” Jun 15, 10:25
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “In the America I grew up in, I didn’t have to care if the current presidential administration thought we were Christians or not. Even if they didn’t like us, we were protected by the 1st amendment, the rule of law, and the general consensus that people have the right to pursue happiness in the way they see fit. That’s all up in the air now. We have leaders in Washington who think it’s an appropriate use of government to promote their particular brand of Christianity and pressure people to live it. They’re fans of Viktor Orban and Patrick Deneen–and we’ll get more of them if J.D. Vance is Trump’s heir. They’ve abandoned the classical liberalism of the founders and think it’s the government’s job to teach people how to live, for their own good. I doubt that Latter-day Saints will be persecuted individually the way the administration currently persecutes immigrants, trans people, or those involved in the legal cases against Trump. But look at how they treat institutions they consider enemies, like universities, the media, law firms, or corporations. That’s all too plausible. Of course they can’t afford to treat us that way right now. As Jonathan says, it’s good to have senators–and enough voting power to make a difference in a closely divided country. The fact that so many members continue to vote for Trump and Trumpists is probably protecting us, for now. If we ever stop voting for them, or if they gain enough power that they no longer need our votes, then watch out. The trick is for the former to happen before the latter does. The solution is not for us to convince them that we are Christians and should be part of the “in” group. That’s never going to happen. The solution is to get back to religious freedom, pluralism, and classical liberalism so we don’t have to care whether they think we’re Christians or not. I keep hoping Republicans will reject Trumpism in their primaries–a two-party democracy needs two healthy parties. But if that fails, I hope more members will think carefully about what is really the lesser of two evils.” Jun 15, 08:56
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “Personally, I don’t really get how anyone can claim that “Mormons are finally discovering that they’ll get left out in the cold under Christian Nationalism”. It’s almost like the poster doesn’t understand the concept of “voting for the less two evils” idea some people use to justify their vote, Trump or otherwise. And believe me, I REALLY DID NOT want to vote for Trump.” Jun 14, 22:36
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “I liked the fact that we weren’t included in the DoD’s updated list of Christians. When we say Church History we mean 1820’s – 1880’s. When other churches say Church History they mean 200’s – 1600’s. There’s a lot of “church history” that we never cover. The Creeds are a really big deal to them. Given that defining what a Christian is, is a really big deal of the Creeds. And it’s something that’s barely on our radar at all. DezNat was Christian Nationalism, but was one that Mormons could do.” Jun 14, 18:34
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “Makes me think of how “the idea of eternal families is non-Biblical” when it comes to “Mormons aren’t Christian” literature, and those same “Christians” will turn around and tell people “accept Christ so you can be with your families in heaven.” Like how in “The Case for Christ” (one of the better Christian movies out there), how one character declares “The Resurrection means I will be with my wife again” – but my thought when seeing that was, if he saw a “Mormon” say something like that, he might trot out “there’s no marriage in heaven!” anti-Mormon trope. Also, DezNat was, to my understanding, based on Christian Nationalism. with DezNat short for “Deseret Nationalist/ism.” They are not missed.” Jun 14, 14:06
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “This issue is much ado about nothing. The Church’s name is much too long for lists like this. And Jesus-Christ is in our name. If we are going to get worked up about something there are much more important issues. And the importance of word Christian has been greatly devalued. There are just too many awful groups and individuals who consider themselves Christian. Our current U.S. President is an example of this.” Jun 14, 12:43
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “I honestly believe the for the classification memo thing it may have been reviewed by a member in the chain or was just a mistake. An argument can be made having a slightly different classification with Christ in the name is better than being grouped with other mostly Protestant sub groups. As someone who works on DOD/DOW policy the sausage made often comes out imperfect in the process. Hegseth likes his right wing Protestant faith but I don’t see a conspiracy. I think we often argue about the wrong things with Hegseth. Making fun of his past alcohol is misguided. I think his politicization of the military and self promotion are eerie and uncomfortable to experience. He uses his speeches to take shots at immigrants, sexual minorities, and his actions are done with the interests of white men in mind. The DOD looks like America and is more integrated than any other part of our country and he is working to try to change that. In the future we’ll find out more about how Pete Hegseth administers and when house oversight strengthens. I am personally concerned most with the false doctrine and worldliness he teaches: Hegseth: “our diversity is our strength” [is the] the “single dumbest phrase in military history Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “the diversity of persons and peoples all around the globe is a strength“ Hegseth says: “History teaches that those willing to wage war to defend peace are the only ones who actually deserve it”. This idea of limiting who deserves peace doesn’t fit with the Gospels or Alma. President Nelson taught:“Too many pundits, politicians, entertainers, and other influencers throw insults constantly. I am greatly concerned that so many people seem to believe that it is completely acceptable to condemn, malign, and vilify anyone who does not agree with them.” President Oaks teaches: “Years later, President Howard W. Hunter described this same love of God toward His children: “The world in which we live would bene?t greatly if men and women everywhere would exercise the pure love of Christ, which is kind, meek, and lowly. … It has no place for bigotry, hatred, or violence. … It encourages diverse people to live together in Christian love regardless of religious belief, race, nationality, ?nancial standing, education, or culture.” The memo doesn’t really matter. It’s minor and seems like bread for circuses and has fostered mostly superficial online chatter. The broader issue for me is how is the executive branch including the DOD/DOW doing and how does it sit with the Gospel and prophetic guidance.” Jun 14, 08:17
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “Yes, fair point and thanks for the clarification. I guess my point is that I think the honest version of the “are Mormons Christians” question probably has to grapple with whether adding the Book of Mormon as canonized scripture and practicing polygamy for 50+ years puts the Church in a categorically different position than Baptists and Catholics arguing about papal authority. Regardless, it still doesn’t follow that the DOD list was anything other than cynically motivated and divisive.” Jun 14, 07:48
- on 15 Thoughts on The Thing This Week: “That’s a fair point, Chad, and a better way to look at it.” Jun 14, 07:42
