- Anon on What Can We Learn from Visions of Glory?: “Non-polygamous LDS Fundamentalism is a real thing, from Julie Rowe to Hannah Stoddard at the Joseph Smith Foundation. There is a real political/cultural schism going on in the Church. It became blazingly apparent during Covid, when the First Presidency was ignored and even ridiculed regarding masking and vaccinations. There is a schism on the political/cultural left, but it doesn’t really shake the foundations like the one on the Right.” Jan 18, 16:26
- on What Can We Learn from Visions of Glory?: “I haven’t read it, but I was expecting Visions of Glory to be somehow more lurid. It actually sounds more like afterlife narratives that have been circulating for 1000 years or so.” Jan 18, 16:12
- on Conviction Without Conflict: The Power of a Gentle Answer: “I’m not sure what church you grew up in, but calling the catholics the great and abominable church and forbidding children from playing with children of other faiths seems pretty far in the conflict camp #child of the 60’s” Jan 18, 16:11
- on What Can We Learn from Visions of Glory?: “Sussing out specific visions that could have inspired Daybell/Hildebrant/Ballard is beyond my pay grade, especially given how little I know about DHB’s worldviews. But I can speculate! Harrison—to his credit—was not creating a movement. He numbered himself as one of the 144,000 from Revelations; the book, however, made a bigger splash than he was expecting, and he seemed sincerely embarrassed that local church leaders frowned on it. As I point out, his visions align with expectations Latter-day Saints have about New Jerusalem, the Millennium, and changes to the earth when it is “rolled together as a scroll”. Pontius worked hard to position Harrison’s visions solidly within pre-existing Mormon beliefs. My guess is that DHB found common cause with Spencer as they were forming their own visionary identities. Hildebrant was preparing for some cataclysm, and Ballard was getting ready to be the President. The clearest connection I know of is that the Daybells imagined they possessed the power to discern people’s spirits, which justified some of their murders. “Spencer” is able to make these discernments during one of his NDEs. Problem is, Latter-day Saints speak of perceiving others’ “countenances” all the time! So you can see how pushing Harrison into DHB’s camp is extreme. Steve, you asked about guardrails: I plan to address that in a later post.” Jan 18, 16:10
- on 17 Thoughts About Resistance: ““I’m not saying they’re equivalent–I’m saying they’re both really bad. And whichever of the two is judged to be worse largely depends on one’s political bias. It’s not a bad litmus test, IMO.” If political bias is to be tested by some reference to policy (rather than a person) than I have to be your counter-example. The Republican platform fit mine to a tee, and even Trump Admin I was, as a policy matter, a pretty good four years in my view (with exceptions that reflect my very Mormon background). It is incredibly easy for me to see riots about people upset about police killings to be wrong, but that January 6th, which as an assault on the democratic foundations of our nation (the vanguard of the protest were insurrectionists in the truest sense, explicitly trying to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power), was so much worse than the Floyd riots. “if it was inappropriate for Sen. Lee to compare Trump to Captain Moroni (and it was) it is equally inappropriate to compare him to King Noah.” The biggest problem with Senator Lee comparing Trump to Captain Moroni is that you have to suspend all disbelief to see any likeness between them whatsoever, while the case that the way he runs the government is much like King Noah is a pretty easy one to make.” Jan 18, 15:43
- on 17 Thoughts About Resistance: “The relative culpability of BLM rioters vs. Jan 6 insurrectionists is, or should be, a matter for juries, judges, and ultimately the Lord. I can work with “they’re both really bad.” The important thing is that Trump disagrees, which is why he pardoned the Jan 6 insurrectionists. He’s just fine with political violence as long as it’s his supporters doing it. He’s using the powers of the presidency (and beyond) to support violence. Again, that should be completely unacceptable. This is no time for “what-abouts.”” Jan 18, 14:30
- on What Can We Learn from Visions of Glory?: “Davek, encouragement to make visionary claims has been central to Christianity for 2000 years and in Mormonism since 1830. That’s ubiquitous and nothing new with Visions of Glory (VG). I’d heard that VG’s intense and specific apocalypticism with very vivid and of a very tangible war with evil spirits and beings was a thread that tied these movements together.” Jan 18, 12:09
- on 17 Thoughts About Resistance: “I’m not saying they’re equivalent–I’m saying they’re both really bad. And whichever of the two is judged to be worse largely depends on one’s political bias. It’s not a bad litmus test, IMO.” Jan 18, 11:36
- on What Can We Learn from Visions of Glory?: “Thanks for the write-up, Kendall. I think some of the details you shared from the book play into why it resonates with Mormons: Canyon from CA to TX? That sounds a lot like the destruction in 3 Nephi 10. Mom struggled with abortion decision? Every Mormon knows that abortion is an abomination and that act would have deprived us of this work of prophecy. Cannibalistic Tahitians? Sounds a lot like bloodthirsty Lamanites at the end of the BoM. I don’t think VoG directly incited the Mormon criminals you mentioned to commit evil acts. But I do think it may have given them the encouragement to make visionary claims and accept followers who believed them. I can certainly imagine Chad Daybell reading VoG and thinking, “If Pontius can experience and share these things, then why not me?” But just as some men “stand on the shoulders of giants who can’t before” the Daybell types push past the guardrails that constrained Pontius and left the reservation. It kinda reminds me of Nauvoo Era Joseph Smith. Once your followers fervently believe whatever you say (and maybe you start to believe in your own divinity), the rules no longer apply and you can do whatever you want until your eventual reckoning with the law. Looking forward to Part 2!” Jan 18, 09:01
- on What Can We Learn from Visions of Glory?: “I have read the book at least twice. I dont see the connection that the book is the problem with or the cause of the “mormon criminals” and what they have done if that is how you (OP) feel. Full disclosure, I dont follow that stuff at all so I am not aware of any direct link that may be out there. Looking forward to others views on this connection. Having experienced an NDE before they were even called that, I am more open to the unusual so this book did not seem to me a “fraud” and leading members away from “church doctrine.” I am aware that lots of “traditional” members believe that only a “prophet” would have access to this type of experience, but that is mormon doctrine. I am aware that others feel that Bro. Harrison is “prophesying” since he speaks of future events, a clear no-no for us lowly member level types. To me, he is just sharing what he experienced. What he saw. He is not saying, thus sayeth the Lord this will happen. He believes his experiences and is sharing them. Readers will of course have to decide what to think. I dont know Bro. Harrison so he could be a fraudulent scoundrel who has a pretty good imagination. Looking forward to this series! Thanks for posting.” Jan 18, 08:37
