- John Taber on Differing from Church Leaders: A Personal Experience: “My brother and his wife lived in California during the days of Prop 22. He said their bishop called them into his office, and to solicit funds for the cause, said “I’m not coming to you as your bishop.” If that were me, I would have 1) called him a hypocrite and stormed out, 2) written an angry letter to the Area Presidency (who did use lies and distortions to promote the “need” for 22 passing), and 3) notified the IRS. Not much longer than that, though, a General Authority Seventy visited my ward in North Carolina – he was visiting his son and his son’s family. He also has the same first and last name as my brother-in-law, they are first cousins once removed. So we had a good conversation, and he recognized the name “Taber” and didn’t know why, maybe I should have mentioned my mother. I realized later that he had been in the North America West Area Presidency when all that was going on. If I had remembered that connection I probably would have given him a hard time about Prop 22. I’m glad I didn’t remember. Part of the issue at the time for me was that I was 27 and “still single”, and some members, beginning in my BYU days, along with the entire Elders’ Quorum in my next ward, labeled me “gay” for it, or wondered out loud “what was wrong” with me.” Aug 6, 18:02
- on AI Agents and Family Relations Among the 12: “You can look at the apostles called in 1943 two different ways: They were both stake presidents in what were then outlying areas of the Church. They were named Kimball and Benson, though. The way I look at it is that, sure, some descendants of General Authorities have also been called, but also have many others haven’t. This is especially the case with the likes of polygamist leaders who had dozens of children; Heber C. Kimball had fifty-two sons. There is something to be said for heritage, though. What I think Boyd K. Packer meant with his term “believing blood” was parental example of having testimonies and being involved in the Church being passed down. I can certainly see patterns of this with my ancestors, but being the third great-grandson of a counselor in the First Presidency (who’s also my namesake) doesn’t entitle me to anything. For a long time, living in Utah meant a much greater likeness of being called to auxiliary presidencies and boards. Susan Winder Tanner and Susan Buhler Taber (my late mother) are second cousins, but they made their mark in very different ways. This was in large part based on where they spent their adult lives.” Aug 6, 17:34
- on Canonization, Part 3: Reasons to Avoid Canonization: “Thanks, Chad. Personally, I hope for no document canonizations unless real revelation occurs. But really, isn’t canonization really meaningless in our present church culture? To wit., (A) If the president of the church decided to canonize the family proclamation or any other text, including his most recent general conference talk, he would make the announcement in general conference and ask for a sustaining vote, and it would be done. There would be no pre-announcement and no opportunity for personal prayer or contemplation. There would also be no tolerance for a “no” vote. To me, canonization and common consent only make sense with pre-announcement and opportunity. (B) The doctrine versus policy debate is hopelessly muddled and provides no meaning. Whatever we believe today is immutable doctrine, but when we decide tomorrow that we don’t believe it anymore, then we say is never was doctrine but was mere policy all along. To me, thus seems disingenuous and unfair. So, based on the above, I really want no more canonizations of already existing texts — I am okay that there have been no canonizations lately. We can accomplish anything through policy. And, my concern I shared in my first comment is a very real concern to me in our present church culture. All that said, I have as little influence as you, or access either, so I really cannot declare why canonizations have seemingly ceased.” Aug 6, 16:11
- on AI Agents and Family Relations Among the 12: “The point isn’t necessarily a nepotistic one, where their GA relative directly called them to that position, but rather that they could have been shortlisted because they belonged to a blue blood family. But yes, by counting it in both directions I’m essentially double counting every tie, that’s fair.” Aug 6, 16:11
- on AI Agents and Family Relations Among the 12: “I don’t get the point of counting grandfathers and uncles, such as Ezra T. Benson and Alonzo Hinckley. When they were called their grandsons and nephews were decades away from being church leaders themselves. The percentage of relatedness for earlier quorums will go down if you don’t count those relationships, and I don’t see a reason for counting them when making a comparison with more recent quorums. Maybe grandsons and nephews of current apostles will seventy years from now will raise the current quorum’s percentage too.” Aug 6, 15:33
- on Canonization, Part 3: Reasons to Avoid Canonization: “ji, given that I have zero influence on what happens at Church headquarters, I consider that list to be something of an innocent intellectual curiosity/exploration in and of itself, haha. I’m not trying to agitate for anything so much as understand how the sausage is made, so to speak.” Aug 6, 12:24
- on Canonization, Part 3: Reasons to Avoid Canonization: “Thanks for your reply and insights Chad. As far as “it is difficult for people to discern when their thoughts are inspired and when they are simply their own thoughts.” … For me it was trial and error at first but eventually it is pretty clear. Like most things we do in life, practice helps. They do feel/sound the same so it can be tricky but people just need to keep at it. I think there is a ton of personal revelation members are missing. My litmus test, if I am not sure, is I ask if I could have come up with that thought. If the answer is “not a chance” then I typically run with that thought. I also clear my mind to see what pops in. :) Have had some amazing experiences with this process over the years.” Aug 6, 10:59
- on AI Agents and Family Relations Among the 12: “1. GB Hinckley doesn’t seem to be on your list of apostles. 2. JB Wirthlin is the cousin of GB Hinckley, and also the son of JL Wirthlin who was the presiding bishop for the church. Presiding bishop doesn’t count if you’re focused on exclusively apostle relationships, but if the broader idea is to look at high ranking church positions, presiding bishop probably should count, IMO. 3. It feels weird to count someone as ‘related to another apostle’ when that other apostle is a descendent of theirs. Yes, they are obviously related, but it’s not like anyone was walking around thinking, “George F Richards probably only got called as an apostle because he’s LeGrand Richard’s dad.” These reciprocal relationships are not consistently applied in your list; John Taylor is listed as John W Taylor’s father, but Hugh B Brown is not listed as Tanner’s uncle. Additionally, using forward looking relationships means that the results from the past can change in the future. If Richard L Evan’s grandson is the next apostle called, suddenly the percentage of apostles related to another apostle back in the 1950s just went up!” Aug 6, 10:25
- on Canonization, Part 3: Reasons to Avoid Canonization: ““…I also have a list of documents that I think would be good to canonize…” Uh oh — so this series isn’t innocent intellectual curiosity?” Aug 6, 09:36
