It’s bad

In polite society we treat elections as an opportunity to advance our self-interest or express policy preferences, about which reasonable people can disagree. And most of the time that may be true and we’re left to choose between various imperfect options, but in this era I think the dwindling tribe of values voters has it right: Voting is a choice with moral implications, with clear right and wrong answers, for which we will one day face judgment. Of course I’m going to judge you for how you voted in November – I’m a very judgy person. But it’s not my judgment you need to worry about.

Over the last decade, we’ve learned that some things are true, and some are not. We have learned that 2016 was not a “Flight 93 election.” At the time, some conservatives thought Democrats coming to power would spell doom for the United States. But they were wrong. Democrats were elected in 2020 and for the next four years, things were basically fine. The pandemic subsided, the economy recovered, and life went on.

Around the same time, other people branded Donald Trump a threat to democracy. And those people were proven correct. After losing the 2020 election, he plotted to retain power, up to and including using violence to prevent a peaceful transition of power.

Despite knowing all that, you made the choice to return him – a convicted felon and past insurrectionist – to office. What do we call it when you know something is wrong, but you choose to do it anyway?

We’ve also learned some things in the last four weeks, beginning with Trump’s pardon of the violent insurrectionists who tried to subvert the election on his behalf. The people who not long ago confidently assured us that Trump wouldn’t actually do the things he had promised to do were wrong. The people who warned against re-electing him have had their fears justified.

The situation we find ourselves in today reminds me of a stake trek activity I went on a few years ago. (Not this trek, but a more recent experience.) The second day was much hotter than expected, so I made sure our group had extra water, but after several miles on a hilly trail, the handcart’s bouncing had combined with the water container’s leaking lid to leave us nearly out of water, along with the rest of the handcart groups, as the temperatures rose past 100 F. Suddenly my confidence that everything would be okay dropped, from 99.99% to 99%, to 90%. The wagon master turned us around and we regained contact with the supply truck and we filled up on water, but a 10% chance of catastrophe is terrible odds, it turns out.

So here we are today, playing the odds.

Maybe one of these times, an on-again-off-again tariff bluff will actually happen and set off an economic disaster.

Maybe an edgy ha-ha-let’s-seize-Greenland stunt will spill over into actual violence, leaving a moral stain on us that will haunt us for the rest of our lives.

Maybe one of the incompetents or arsonists now in charge of various government functions will fail to take action, or do something destructive, at a critical moment.

Maybe the people currently taking a lawless approach to government spending will take similarly lawless action with some other essential function of democracy.

Mayben not! Maybe everything will be okay. But a 10% chance of suffering irreparable harm turns out to be terrible odds. After four bad weeks, we have to be lucky for four more years, but this time with worse people running the show than last time.

And last time we didn’t stay lucky. If you’re old enough to remember, the first Trump administration was awful. Then Covid hit, and the response to the pandemic was chaotic and polarizing when we needed it to be organized and cohesive. Over a million Americans died, and we were left on our own to figure out who could be trusted, and what steps were useful, and which information was accurate.

Of course I worry about all the ways I’m exposed to political turbulence: What happens if Pell grants don’t get issued, or Medicaid no longer pays for my mother-in-law’s assisted living, or the ACA gets defunded, and several other things that may not happen, although some people now in charge of our government very much want to make them happen.

But I also worry about what this might do to you. The cognitive pathways that make it possible to say that Trump was the better choice after all were alarming enough back in November, corrosive by the inauguration, and toxic today. “Yeah Trump is bad, but at least”—don’t finish the sentence. There is no way to make that argument without cankering your soul. As the catastrophe becomes more difficult to deny, the cost of denying it will steadily increase, to embracing more caustic levels of resentment and denying more self-evident truths. Trump lost the 2020 election, vaccines are effective, immigration is healthy for our country, and the American system of liberal democracy with a free market subject to regulation is good and doesn’t need to be burned down. The vicarious thrill of seeing vengeance wrought on your political opponents will not make you happy.

The concept of sin is helpful here because it’s embedded in a plan for redemption. Making the wrong choice despite our best efforts happens; it’s the human condition. Instead of compounding our errors, we can recognize a mistake, change course, repent, and rely on the Savior to pay the price for our folly – as long as we don’t put ourselves in a place beyond repentance by refusing to recognize our error. I’m not expecting an apology or anything like it. As I watch things burn down in weeks that this country spent a century building, I’ve got my own mistakes and failures to deal with. But I hope that you will be honest with yourself.

So right now, things are bad. What it means this week is that some people have already had to pick a hill for their careers to die on. I don’t know what it will mean next week, or next month, or next year. You should think carefully in advance about what battles aren’t worth fighting, and what hills you’re committed to defending, before you draw the wrong line in the sand, or find that an ill-chosen retreat leaves you with lasting shame.


Comments

36 responses to “It’s bad”

  1. I didn’t vote for Trump. But I know a lot of people–who are much better than I am–who did.

  2. John Melonakos

    The ends never justify the means. People who are hungry for certain results lose sight of what they sacrifice to get there.

    Thanks for sharing.

  3. I’m pretty sure that before very long, my Social Security check will not arrive. But at that point, Trump will have harmed enough of his “followers” that there will be a massive uprising. He is already randomly harming many of the people who voted for him, especially the farmers who depend on government assistance to help them keep their heads above water. What we are seeing is what some of us knew all along: Trump doesn’t really care about all the little people he duped. He cares about the billionaires and about himself. MAGA=Make America Gullible Again.

  4. I’ve really tried to figure out why you wrote this, and having removed (i) to inform, (ii) to persuade, or (iii) to entertain; I’ve come up with ‘man yells at the sky.’

  5. I think if there’s any trend I’ve picked up on in the last ten years, it is that many people are both (i) uninformable and (ii) unpersuadable as it relates to politics because they’re living comfortably in their information silos. That affects people of all political stripes, but my own opinion is that most people who voted for Trump in 2024 would never have done so in, say, 2006; no one at Fox News would have even attempted a defense of Jan. 6 if it happened 20 years ago. Unsure of how to respond, formerly conservative people now tell everyone else that they’re overreacting (“man yells at sky”) or that every politician does venal things. I suppose the latter is true, but unless your whataboutism starts with “Yes, my guy fomented a coup on live television but…,” it’s probably going to fall on deaf ears.

  6. Last Lemming

    Ransacking government buildings and computers in DC is not going to outrage enough people to make a difference. Imposing 25% tariffs on everything, however, will get everybody’s attention, so I’m actually hoping it happens sooner rather than later. Yes, it will bring economic disaster, but it is a disaster we know how to fix. We don’t know how to fix a shredded constitution.

    And we need to ask ourselves what we are willing to do in resistance. Writing blog posts (or commenting on them) won’t get it done. Switching to MapQuest won’t get it done. “Not-my-Presidents” Day protests will not get it done. Even lawsuits won’t get it done. Impeachment will never happen. Watch Selma. Watch Gandhi. Read about the Anti-Nephi-Lehies. I think those are best case scenarios for a successful resistance. The time for such action is not yet upon us. But the time to mentally prepare for such action is now.

  7. NYAnn, seriously, you need to seek help. You don’t know any of these people, you don’t know what’s in their hearts and you certainly don’t know enough to declare that Nelson is a “despicably evil liar and hypocrite,” “megalomaniac,” or that he despises Hinckley. You are spinning a story for yourself based purely on taking a set of a few facts, layering it thickly over with hatred and conspiratorial thinking, and vomiting it onto the Internet. You need help.

  8. Jack, me too. Family and friends and a lot of people I like a lot. I think “sin” is an underrated category for helping us negotiate political difference. Can we love people if they sin? Yes, of course, and we have some practice with it.

    Thor, I aim to provide compelling entertainment in troubled times. I’ll try to do better.

    Last L.: Yes, pretty much.

    NYAnn, sorry, this is not the place. Some of the acclamation for Church leaders may get over the top, as Stephen says, but the love for the Prophet is genuine, and I’m as uninterested in leaving insults to him posted here as I would be in leaving an insult to my wife posted in my house.

  9. I hope your Wards and Branches pray for Federal workers losing their jobs right now. While I think the biggest problems coming are longer term like affiliating with Putinism and the inability for a hobbled gov to deliver what we’ve gotten used to receiving, along with an economy that will scare at some point. But for now when congregation members find out about the Vet they like in EQ getting fired from his new Fed job it may start to break through to some in our Church community that it hadn’t before in the short term there are some darker consequences to their vote.

  10. Planet Money was hypothesizing that DOGE might have screwed around with the Treasury payment system enough that the quarterly interest on Treasury Notes might not happen. Should that occur, it will be economic chaos.
    I don’t know if I find voting for Trump to be a sin. But I do think about Paul and Moroni’s teaching’s on Charity and how if you don’t have it, all of the good works won’t matter. I think that voting for Trump is a sign of not having Charity.

  11. Let me add another possible scenario—one that seems increasingly likely to those working in infectious diseases. One of the latest bird flu variants is close to jumping to humans, and since those in the CDC who track potential outbreaks have already been fired, we won’t know about it ahead of time, unlike with Covid.

    The part about all this that I don’t understand is how the so-called conservatives have gone against what were once their bedrock principles:
    * Law and Order? — now it’s ok to pardon thousands of violent criminals
    * Respect for the Constitution? — now the executive ignores the legislature’s prerogatives
    * Don’t Raise Taxes? — Uh, tariffs are taxes
    * Avoid Inflation? — Tariffs are inflationary
    * Respect Religion? — How is sending ICE agents into sanctuaries respectful?
    * Avoid foreign wars? — Greenland? Gaza? If you often threaten war aren’t you going to have to fight sometime?

    How I wish we had some good old fashioned conservatives in the government!

  12. “The Sky is Falling”….”The Sky is Falling”……

    I’ve read so many diatribes like this over the years (and while it can be therapeutic for the author) more often than not it’s just nonsense. Rather than wringing your hands 24/7 – you might want to (seriously) get some therapy.

    Like all of the decades before, we will be just fine and life goes on. Sadly, I’ll never be able to recover the five minutes of my life that I just lost by reading this “mental vomiting”.

  13. LHL, have you considered that the relevant nursery story might not be Chicken Little but rather the Boy Who Cried Wolf?

    Maybe you have heard so many false cries in the past that when the real one comes you can’t tell?

  14. Last Lemming

    Like all of the decades before, we will be just fine and life goes on.

    You mean decades like the 1930’s? Or perhaps the 1850’s? Or do only decades during your lifetime count?

  15. your food allergy

    I appreciate these thoughts on the moral and spiritual implications of our political choices. And I think it’s interesting and sad to see the effects of a bad (sinful) choice playing out, not just in our own yard, but in developments in Ukraine and Europe, and who knows where else next. I do wish our prophets would consider being more bold in calling out society-wide sin in the tradition of so many Old Testament and BoM prophets.

  16. Brother Green is clearly not a fan of the president of the country and gets to get that off his chest freely. He has the power to create post so post away.

    Sister NYAnn is clearly not a fan of the president of the church and also gets that off her chest and then gets deleted/cancelled.

    I am not a huge fan of either presidents, not to the extent of the two opinions mentioned above, but I like reading other opinions. I may not express my dislikes the same as others but others should be able to share freely.

    I disagree with NYAnns comments being removed and hope she will continue to share her views here even tho they may not be popular to the traditional member.

    Note: I can only assume you are both members, if you are not, my apologies.

  17. I don’t know what NYAnn wrote — but if Hoosier’s subsequent comment fairly describes NYAnn’s comment, then I agree with its deletion from this thread.

  18. LHL, in some ways, the sky is here. It fell. Past tense. More parts of the sky look to be incoming soon. In the realm of diplomacy, for example, the vice president endorsing a straight-up neonazi party a few days before a national election is the kind of disaster that was supposed to be unimaginable. A U.S. president endorsing Russian propaganda about a democratic ally should be impossible. But here we are.

    REC 911: If you enjoy reading people insulting the Church or its leaders, you’ll have to look elsewhere. Just like if you enjoy hearing people insult my wife, you’ll have to do it outside my house. There will be no justification offered, and no apology. This is very much not a value-free space where all opinions are equally valid.

  19. My ward contains a large university that does lots of federally-funded research. This Sunday, a brother who does not work at the university asked me about a comment that the ward was hurting right now–he thought he might have missed a death or something. I explained that due to “the chaos in Washington” the bishop, most of the bishopric, and several other long-time ward members (including myself) are in danger of losing our jobs. The many grad students in the ward may lose their funding, and if they want to stay in academia they face significantly worse career prospects. (The faculty in the ward all have tenure and will almost certainly be more-or-less okay.) He apparently had no idea–and this is not an accident. One reason the Trump/Musk team is moving so quickly on so many things at the same time is so that people can’t keep track of them all or identify the likely consequences (including the Trump/Musk team) until it’s too late.

    That won’t last. We’re barely a month in. Six months from now, a year, certainly well before the 2026 midterms, the consequences of what’s being done now will be apparent to everyone who doesn’t deliberately blind their minds to them. Jonathan’s plea to not do that is a valuable one. (Even if a man sometimes has to yell at the sky and hope that the One who lives there will hear and be merciful.)

  20. I want to emphasize that while the consequences are not all clear yet, I agree with Jonathan that parts of the sky have indeed fallen. Trump has shielded his supporters from the criminal consequences of violence and corruption. He is changing the structure of the federal government and deciding what will and will not be funded in defiance of laws passed by Congress. The courts are beginning to catch up, and we can hope that Trump will be bound by their rulings. But at the moment, important parts of the Constitution and the rule of law are simply not in force and Trump is acting as a dictator.

  21. Jack of Hearts

    Thanks, Jonathan. The past decade in politics has made me realize that these kinds of statements will always be derided as “harping on” or “yelling at the sky” or “alarmist,” but they still have to be made. Someone has to say it, and keep saying it, otherwise we simply continue to acclimate. It is better to have the courage to take a stance and be wrong about how bad it is than to silently fret that things are bad but not to say anything for fear of being proven wrong or sounding alarmist. I’ve been trying to do better at it myself, so thank you for the example of your courage.

  22. “There is no way to make that argument without cankering your soul.”

    Maybe so, but I do have something to say that may be helpful.

    Speculative catastrophism is really unhealthy. I have struggled with catastrophizing all my life – I call it the “spiral.” It is really easy to convince yourself that you are just being hard-nosed, realist, and brutally honest when in reality you are just giving overdue credence to the worst outcome in your head, while discounting the unpredictable nature of reality and the numerous ways in which it, and others, surprise us. Since you’re thinking about things that have not yet come to pass, there’s no real data to help you update your priors. The whole thing feels like truth, but that is a psychological illusion born out of innate human loss aversion. Since we’re talking about presidents, I’d like to paraphrase Calvin Coolidge – “if you see 10 problems coming down the road, 9 will drive off the side before they reach you.”

    But along with that, I do want to say this: the postwar consensus in American politics has real and profound problems and is groaning under its own weight. A sea change was inevitable, and has come.

    Twenty-first century mass immigration is an economically and culturally distinct phenomenon from the archetypal early-20th century immigration with which Americans are comfortable. The anarchic “enforcement” to which the Democratic Party deliberately committed itself during the Biden administration is routinely disapproved of by supermajorities of Americans and fails basic moral scrutiny.

    The war in Ukraine is not winnable with current munitions production levels. We can talk a big game and pay for it in the blood of an entire Ukrainian generation, but it is not realistic to expect us to force Russia back to status quo ante or to turn over Putin. Previous generations of upright Americans were willing to act pragmatically in order to avoid wars we had little chance of winning. See: Eisenhower and the Soviet invasion of Hungary, Johnson and the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. It’s okay to accept that entropy has taken its toll, and that we have to accept the reality of zones of influence.

    5 of the 7 richest counties in the United States are the immediate environs of Washington DC. Washington D.C. is the most left-leaning jurisdiction in the United States. 80% of the civil service’s campaign donations go to Democrats. Senior Executive Service “civil servants” failed to execute the orders of a democratically elected president with aplomb, raising serious questions as to the accountability of the civil service, which constitutionally has no foundation. Most of America feels that this power does not answer to them, and it is hard to imagine a way in which accountability could be restored without the sort of things Trump is doing.

    These are real problems, and what we are witnessing is a version of the cycle of regimes described by Polybius. You have a structure and philosophy of government which are necessarily imperfect, the problems and contradictions accumulate, and the thing eventually collapses under its own weight. The phenomenon of stable Westphalian nationstates obscures this trend (it was a lot more visible back in 3rd century BC Greece), but it can be recognized in the passing of the torch between various political paradigms as they come and go under the banner of the U.S. Constitution. The postwar consensus in America is passing by. Trump is, as Kissinger suggested, “one of those figures in history who appears from time to time to mark the end of an era and to force it to give up its old pretenses.” We’ve had a few. Washington, Lincoln, Jackson, FDR are all examples of this sort of character, and all of them pushed the envelope in ways similar to Trump. Lincoln is famous for winning the Civil War, but he defied courts and the conventional limits of presidential power of his day seven ways from Sunday. FDR also pushed the limits, blew up the federal government, suborned the judiciary, and inaugurated a regime of domestic surveillance. The Republic survived, and reveres these men (rightly or wrongly) because they came at a time when the existing political structure of America was unsuited for the times and needed a reconstruction. It’s been about 80 years, the same interval between Washington-Lincoln-FDR – the time has probably come again. The 600+ judges of the lower federal courts (which aren’t actually in the Constitution, just a Judiciary Act that Jefferson pushed to bypass troublesome jurists) might lose the ability to estop the entire federal government – the Supreme Court might reserve that right to itself. Congress will have to figure out if it actually wants the Impoundment Control Act. And the president’s influence over the administrative state will probably return to a level characteristic of the Progressive Era as opposed to the last 30 years. Also, the permanent political class in DC might get washed, leaving room for new blood and enhanced responsiveness to the people. These are not catastrophes.

    Take heart, and some wisdom from Ecclesiastes – none of this is as unprecedented as it seems, it’s just been a while.

  23. What’s wild is that I was a kid in the ’90s, and distinctly remember my Youth leaders repeatedly showing us a certain Seminary video–narrated by none other than Boyd K. Packer–wherein a Native American boy goes on a journey up a mountain top. There, he encounters a talking rattle-snake, who asks for a lift back down. The boy initially refuses, saying the snake will obviously bite him if given the chance, to which the snake quite sensibly argues that such would not be in his best interest. So the boy trusts the snake and carries him all the way down to safety at the bottom of the mountain.

    At which the snake promptly bites him.

    As the boy lay dying, writhing in agony, he asks why the snake would betray him like that, after all he’d done to help him. “You knew what I was when you picked me up,” the snake replies.

    As a youth I hated the video, since it seemed to argue that you can’t trust anyone, that it’s OK to judge others by appearance, that there’s no such thing as repentance or redemption, that one should never be generous or charitable to an enemy, and etc. It’s ironically only been as a full-grown adult that I’ve come to appreciate the grim wisdom of Elder Packer’s parable: because Trump is a snake who has spent a solid decade now repeatedly showing shown us who he is. Absolutely nothing he has done this past month has been the least bit surprising–just as nothing he did over the course of his entire first term was ever a surprise. Maya Angelou famously said that “When someone tells you who they are, believe them the first time,” and Trump has told us who he is repeatedly and explicitly. We are long past the ability of anyone to plead ignorance. If you voted for him, to quote Elder Packer, you knew who he was when you picked him up. And the bitterest irony of all is that the very Youth leaders who kept on showing me that video growing up are ultimately the ones who ended up picking up the rattle-snake themselves.

    Also, I am just totally over the tendency of certain commentators, on numerous blogs, to say they know many otherwise “good” people who voted for Trump. I don’t doubt for a second that they are kind and loving to their friends and families (though as Christ taught, do not even the publicans so?); but anyone who supports a politician who slanders immigrants and refugees as pet-eaters, rapists, terrorists, and criminals while being himself a confirmed rapist, domestic terrorist, and convicted felon–one who moreover does everything he can to openly hurt the weakest, poorest, and most marginalized among us with maximum viciousness and cruelty–cannot reasonably be classified as a “good” person. Jean-Paul Sartre in his 1944 book “Anti-Semite and Jew: On the Etiology of Hate” made a similar point about how anti-Semites (and his insights apply equally well to anti-Muslims, anti-immigrants, etc.) who actively harm others are sometimes excused by their neighbors as otherwise good people:

    “But someone will object: What if he is like that only with regard to the Jews? What if he otherwise conducts himself with good sense? I reply that that is impossible. There is the case of a fishmonger who, in 1942, annoyed by the competition of two Jewish fishmongers who were concealing their race, one fine day took pen in hand and denounced them. I have been assured that this fishmonger was in other respects a mild and jovial man, the best of sons. But I don’t believe it. A man who finds it entirely natural to denounce other men cannot have our conception of humanity; he does not see even those whom be aids in the same light as we do. His generosity, his kindness are not like our kindness, our generosity. You cannot confine passion to one sphere.”

  24. Sorry to say, Hoosier, that’s not very helpful at all. Your conclusion is obtuse. Your advice seems to be that we should just let the dictator’s moment wash over us. If it washes a lot of us out to sea permanently, well, that’s just what the tides of history do. That is supposed to make us feel better? Maybe you take comfort in doing nothing. Most people do not.

    It is bizarre that you present your elaborate apology for Trump’s abuses as an expression of your own psychological dysfunction. You are unfortunate to have a problem with catastrophizing, but nobody should be persuaded to do nothing just because it makes you feel better.

    You imply that present events are benign because you can frame the past in a way that makes you comfortable. This argument is just self-indulgence. Every moment in history is unique, regardless of historical patterns that may or may not exist. At no point in American history have we had a president who aspired to eliminate elections, as we have now. For the first time, we have a would-be dictator and his regime who can draw lessons from a hundred years of ideological autocracy and totalitarianism–in addition to all the lessons from our own dark legal traditions of slavery, racial oppression, xenophobia, and misogyny. The people who now run the government have studied the ways to disarm democracy. They are leveraging all the fear, hatred, and disinformation they can muster. There is no reason, historical or otherwise, to believe that they are just going to walk away when they have finished doing whatever you deem salutary and appropriate.

    Taking action matters. Dictatorship is a bad thing. Bigotry and hatred are bad things. The rule of law is worth defending.

    How foolish it would be to heed your whispering counsel.

  25. Thanks Loursat. Take care. It will be okay. He’s not a dictator, by the way, and has absolutely zero demonstrable aspirations to eliminate elections. You are radicalized and need to seek a better information environment.

    If you find yourself deriving meaning, validation, and satisfaction from declaring that the world is doomed and half the country are moral monsters, you need to log off. You don’t need to live like this.

  26. “Christians, get out and vote, just this time. You won’t have to do it anymore. Four more years, you know what, it will be fixed, it will be fine. You won’t have vote anymore, my beautiful Christians. I love you Christians. I’m a Christian. I love you, get out, you gotta get out and vote. In four years, you don’t have to vote again, we’ll have it fixed so good you’re not going to have to vote.”

    –Donald Trump, July 26, 2024, in a campaign speech at West Palm Beach, Florida

  27. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/vote-four-years/

    This is not, in any way shape or form, a declaration that he will end elections. It’s a claim that the issues will be resolved so that these voters can go back to political inactivity. That’s from his own mouth. Not even Snopes thinks he wants to end elections.

    See, this is catastrophizing in action. You seize upon a data point, take your pre-existing suppositions and cast it in the worst light possible, and that story becomes a fact in your head without any further input. It’s not healthy, it’s not good for you, the country, or anybody. This is radicalization, and you need to log off.

  28. Trump said what he said, and his statement about not needing to vote in four years is of a piece with the rest of his rhetoric. He began holding political rallies that evoked fascism ten years ago. He has not stopped. Throughout that time, we have all been free to hear him and recognize who he is. I have listened to many, many hours of Trump, direct and unfiltered. His words have taught me who he is.

    It is not easy to be clear-sighted about political realities. That’s true in any era, not just our own fraught time. For many people, the current situation causes extra anxiety. Hoosier, you have acknowledged your struggle with anxiety. If you are dealing with your anxiety by denying what you see and hear, I can’t honestly say that you are wrong. Maybe that’s what you need to do to survive.

    However, it is wrong for you to project your own psychological struggles onto others. It is actually possible to be honest about what Donald Trump says and does.

  29. I’m sure you have listened to many, many hours of Trump. Direct, unfiltered, clipped maybe? For all your observation, you clearly were not able to avoid an obvious and egregious misinterpretation that took less than 5 minutes to fact check. And having been caught in it, you simply retort that he “evokes fascism” and keep right on going with your internal narrative as if it never happened. How much of your worldview is made of this exact phenomenon, repeated and iterated at length?

    Well-adjusted people don’t go around grousing about how Trump is a dictator that wants to cancel elections. Well-adjusted people don’t talk about their countrymen with such dripping contempt. To be frank, you sound extremely online and politically obsessed (having watched many, many hours of a man you clearly hate), and for your own sake I am begging you to take a step back from your catastrophic storytelling. This is the sort of thing that creates shooters and gets innocent people killed. You don’t need to be part of it.

  30. Vic Rattlehead

    We are in an interesting spot. By this I mean that I feel we are in a uniquely serious and precarious postion than before, but we still need to avoid thinking that the world is going to be glass by the time Trumps presidency is over. In the 2016 elections, a local church leader as well as others literally had to come say that Trump winning would not result in the planet exploding, and it didn’t. We want to avoid catastrophizing. That said, things are very serious right now, and while an Aldeeraan scenario is not likely, there seems a greater risk of disaster, and society is going a very bad way.

    Hoosier, while it may be a stretch to call Trump a dictator, he does have some concerning authoritarian and populist tendencies, as well as a rather strong-arming way of running things. Trump is not a fascist, by even the most progressive stretch of the imagination, but there are some parallels between current US society and the Weimar Republic-German Interwar period, and it is not unreasonable for people to realize similarities and express concern. In addition, you later discuss about well adjusted people, and how our friend Loursat seems always online and obbsessed with politics.

    The sad truth is, millions and millions of Americans are that way now. I am guessing Loursat is not some crazed individual in a basement. You find Loursats comments to be indicitave of a possessed lifestyle. The fact of the matter is that it is now common. Now this is the crux of my concern, and this applies to all. If most people think the other half are monsters, one side a group of mysoginist idiots clicking their heels to the idea of a white Christian nationalist society, and the other side a snobbish cabal of elitists that seek nothing more than to crush the economy under the guise of stewardship and sacrifice the unborn to Moloch, then we are in some deep crap indeed. That is what I am most afraid of.

  31. JB, thanks for your comments. I do disagree about the impossibility of good people voting for Trump, though, for a couple reasons. First, if good people are those who don’t ever make bad choices, we’re all damned. Not everyone follows politics closely, and Trump did very well with low-information voters. I can’t put people who make decisions based on limited information in the same category as people who knowingly denounce a neighbor. The gospel of Jesus is stronger than philosophy of Sartre.

    Second, the only way to fix this situation is to move some of those voters into the other column. I agree there are bad people out there – but we have to draw the borders of good people a lot less narrowly to make this work.

    Hoosier, thanks very much for making the case. Catastrophizing is a terrible cognitive habit to get into, and we see far too much of it in online discussions in this neighborhood. It’s important to be realistic about things that are merely normal Republican stuff, corrections to progressive overreach, or Trumpist bluster with no practical effect (of which there is a great amount).

    I disagree on several points, but I’ll mostly treat them as moot for now. With the exception of Ukraine – the Russian army has made only creeping progress for years, while it’s frontline logistics are starting to use wheelbarrows and donkeys to transport supplies, so Ukraine can certainly achieve a much better outcome than submitting to every Russian demand, particularly if the U.S. were not in the midst of betraying them. (Also, in fairness to Loursat, it’s reasonable to doubt Trump’s commitment to free and fair elections, given how he handled 2020.)

    But I do note that even your optimistic read of the situation argues that the familiar frustration of incremental fixes and legislative compromise must now give way to something like a regime change, only led this time by some of the most incompetent and nihilistic people this country has ever seen in government. And I’m having a hard time finding any comfort in that.

  32. So I get into it with a friend on another platform who keeps spewing the same propaganda as if anyone who voted for Trump lost their minds and rely on him like God to make our lives better. He also accused me of being willing to sidestep democracy to get the things I want.

    I may have lost a friend, because my correction was as follows:

    “You folks and your propaganda are nauseating. You think it’s about making my life better? It’s all about me?
    You know what I wanted out of Trump?
    The same damn thing I wanted out of Obama, Biden, Bush, Big Bush and and Clinton.
    Those those things are the following
    – Transparency
    – A secure border
    – Honesty
    – Common sense leadership
    – Doing exactly what you campaigned on
    – A strong military
    – An end to political indoctrination in our schools
    – Respect for personal freedom
    – And someone who would think about America first before giving everything to the world while his own people suffer.

    Not one of them came through. Each one of them failed. Most didn’t even try. They just faked it well enough that you are still pining for their pipe dream. But guess who did come through? As flawed as he is as a person, it was freaking Trump. A man I was never a fan of personally but respect because he does the hell what he says he’s going to do or tries.

    That’s what I voted for. Not some polished fake politician who pretends to be an angel but is doing the devils work as we are distracted by their platitudes and symbolic gestures that get us absolutely no where.

    No one is side stepping democracy, genius. By the way, we don’t live in a democracy. We live in a constitutional republic.

    But let’s go with your twisted idea of democracy.

    Was it democracy when Biden coerced Big Tech into silencing millions of Americans for their opinions and thoughts?
    Was it democracy when that old man lied to you and told you he didn’t know about his sons dealings and that the laptop didn’t exist? Because for many that may have changed their vote in the 2020 election if they knew then candidate Biden was compromised.
    Was it democracy when he got 51 intelligence agents who we are supposed to trust, to go along with the lie and call it Russian disinformation?
    Was it democracy to force people to choose between feeding their damn family and a damn shot in the arm that is causing damage to a lot of people?
    Was it democracy when Biden flew in hundreds of thousands of migrants in the middle of the night without telling us and also opened the borders? Did we the American people have a say in that? No the heck we didn’t.
    Was it democracy when if we question elections or vaccines that we get silenced and are forced to self sensor just to survive?

    It that’s your democracy? You can keep that crap bro, respectfully.

    Trump is no God or saint but it’s a damn shame it took a flawed man to do right by the American people. He’s showing you how corrupt your government truly is and I’m here for it. No regrets whatsoever.”

  33. I’m sorry to have to tell you this, LHL, but you fell for it.

    Transparency – Trump has just fired dozens of inspectors general, while unvetted people root through government files and decide what happens without oversight.

    A secure border – Trump personally intervened to destroy a bipartisan border security bill last summer. He doesn’t want a secure border. He wants chaos and scapegoats.

    Honesty – He is incapable of telling the truth. Nothing he says can be trusted.

    Common sense leadership – Nothing about Trump’s dealings with our allies and enemies makes a bit of sense. It’s weakening us by the day.

    Doing exactly what you campaigned on – He claimed to have absolutely nothing to do with Project 2025. Then he installed its author in our government and started enacting it by executive order.

    A strong military – The defense secretary is instructing the Pentagon to make plans for a 40% budget cut.

    An end to political indoctrination in our schools – Talk to your local and state school board about that.

    Respect for personal freedom – I don’t know what you mean. Is this code for respecting privacy, or abortion rights, or drug legalization, or antivax nonsense, or something else?

    Someone who would think about America first before giving everything to the world while his own people suffer – Foreign aid constituted a tiny fraction of our budget (less than 1%) and accomplished some useful things. Cutting Medicaid and Medicare and the VA is going to make a lot of our people suffer.

  34. rogerdhansen

    MAGA and Trump are having a negative effect on the Church. The values they project are counter to the beliefs of many Mormons. My values are 180 degrees out from the MAGA crowd. Trumpism is bifurcating the membership. How could the majority of Mormons vote for such a corrupt individual? Isn’t religion about values and morality? I guess my values are not the same as those of the majority of Church members (and possibly leadership). That is a huge problem for me and other centrists and progressives. Does the leadership really want to align itself with Christian Nationalist?

  35. Shocked to find myself agreeing with Jonathan Green

    Well, this is a first: I fully agree with a Jonathan Green post and his follow up comments. Strange times. Jonathan knows Germany, yes the Germany of a different period, but he still knows Germany. He knows how delicate constitutional government proved to be in the early 20th century, in Germany. He sees the patterns because the patterns are obvious to point of being obtuse. And he is also right: the sky has already fallen. The game is already over. Our own republic will never be same. It is not going to end, the American nation I mean, but the republic as we have known it until a few weeks ago is now an artifact of the past.

    This is a regime change. And we will all be very fortunate if it does not require violence to maintain it or overthrow it. But here is the thing with regime change: there will always be a large amount of people thrilled to break things and hurt others, because it feels good to them to do so. They will even feel that divine providence is shining down upon them as they temporarily benefit from the chaos and lawlessness. They won’t wake up until they are hurt, either by the unconstitutional regime they once help bring to power, or by whatever external force(s) remove it from power.

    I go back and forth between feeling absolute fury and a sense of mourning, and between those I feel constant deja vu because this is what always happens to powerful republics. Always.

    I suppose I do disagree with Jonathan Green on one point hinted at in the comments: I do feel that Mormons have played our part in bringing down the constitution we claim to be divinely inspired. If Mormons were better at seeing evil and corruption as evil and corrupt, Utah, Idaho, and Arizona would have voted differently, and that right there would have been the action to save the constitution as it dangled by a thread a few months back. So I do feel like our leaders over the past few generations have helped to cultivate a membership that fell too easily and in too many numbers to an immoral man who now is governing as an autocrat. In the mid 20th century we tried to become the best Americans, more American than the blue bloods of Yankee heritage. In the early 21st century, we helped to destroy the America that was. One could wish–without bitter acrimony–that President Oaks had leveraged some of his expertise and moral authority over the past decade to forestall this outcome. But that is all water under the bridge at this point.

    And for all of you commenters who will say, “Get a grip, snowflake,” I say in advance: My grip is secure and I am already pitying you before you feel the pain that is coming.

  36. If this is true (and it’s too early to really know yet), we will find it very difficult to rebuild following the careless destruction.

    https://newrepublic.com/article/191421/trump-emigration-wave-brain-drain

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