Last Utah post for a while, I promise
Imagine you lived in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia, or some other area settled by a historically disenfranchised religious group. Also imagine, if you will, that this Jewish or Muslim or what have you group had a local holiday that celebrated their escape from persecution and their settlement in their new land.
In such a situation, using wordplay to come up with an alternative holiday where one ate pork would be considered in poor taste given the genesis of the holiday. (Or, for example, a Friday Meat Day on Good Friday for a Catholic community).
The mature thing to do would be to be happy for them, maybe even join in the local celebrations. You wouldn’t be offended just because it was particular to the religious group that has historical roots in the place. If you switch Mormon with literally any other group, Buddhist, Muslim, Baha’i, whatever, this is obvious, but for some reason this is one of those things where it’s normatively okay to be demeaning towards Latter-day Saints in a way that would be considered inappropriate for virtually any other religious group.
Oh, c’mon, man, get over yourself. The pioneers loved pie and they loved beer (and a whole lot of other things and practices that might make east bench Provo a little uncomfortable). Your pioneer ancestors would be pariahs in 2024 mainline Utah Mormonism.
How about you now do this post from indigenous peoples’ point of view? How insensitive and ridiculous is it for Mormons to hold a holiday celebrating the invasion of your lands and large scale removal or extermination of your ancestors? If you can memorialize the persecution experienced by Mormons, surely you are capable of acknowledging the cataclysm they directly and indirectly visited upon the native inhabitants of Utah and surrounding regions?
Or you could do it from an American point of view, where a separatist religious sect declares the US in need of divine retribution as it wholesale abandons the republic and seeks to establish a theocratic authoritarian state adjacent to the Union in the sovereign territory of Mexico? It’s celebrating a secession day, like in the old south.
This post is embarrassing. Consider taking it down.
Pioneer Day reminds us that we are “a historically disenfranchised religious group,” but that means nothing to Utahns who not in the church. To non-Mormons in Utah, we are the historically dominant and domineering people who still control the state’s politics and set the tone for the state’s culture.
Pioneer Day is essentially an officially sanctioned religious holiday that pretends to be a special day for everyone in Utah. It might not be “mature” to bridle against that if you’re not a Latter-day Saint, but I don’t blame people for feeling uncomfortable with it. It smacks of playing the victim when Latter-day Saints complain about it.
May every faith tradition face the remarkably benign jesting of a fun and not-even-widespread pun as their best marker of marginalization.
G.K. Chesterton once said, “It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it.”
Lighten up, Francis. In the litany of problems facing the world and the Church, this does not even rank in the top one trillion. Demeaning? Not even close.
Our active family is going to Wasatch brew pub for pie and (root) beer later today
This post should’ve stayed in the drafts folder
Nowhere did I imply that this was the worst thing to ever happen to us, and you can apply the “why talk about this when there are starving children in Africa” to almost anything. I’m simply making the point that the notion is in poor taste, there is a certain middle-finger aspect to the idea of Pie and Bear day for the reasons outlined that is uncouth.
“To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else…”
Do you really see LDS members living Utah as a “historically disenfranchised religious group” within Utah by other Utahians…? In what sense is this true?
I’m just going to guess, but I imagine those creating the second holiday are actually the more disenfranchised in the state. It’s why they are making the joke.
And the rest of the country doesn’t care one way or the other.
Poor taste? Uncouth? How positively Victorian (ironically, a period in history where Mormons imbibed and produced copious amounts of beer on July 24 and every other day of the year).
Again, lighten up, Francis. Taking advantage of word play to have an alternative celebration on a Utah Mormon-only holiday for the rest of the population of the state (which is increasingly *not* Mormon) is about as harmless as you can get.
But even if one were to grant your premise–that this is a middle finger to the Mormon community–it would be quite easy to point out many other ways in which Mormons in Utah give the middle finger to non-believers (e.g. the draconian and anti-freedom liquor laws in the state, the treatment of minority populations, the deference of the state legislature to 50 N. Temple).
Wow, it would have never even occurred to me to be offended by “pie and beer day”. In fact lots of Latter-day Saints in Utah have pizza (pie) or pie (dessert) and root beer on the day. As far as I know, no one thinks those who have started the tradition of pie and alcoholic beer for this holiday are doing anything offensive.
This just makes me want pie and beer.
Stephen, I think you meant to post this over on FAIR, where you’ve posted before. This classic manifestation of the Mormon Persecution Complex will play a lot better over there. And it might get you noticed by the Deseret News in case you want to expand this into an opinion piece. Hal loves this stuff, you know.
Perhaps you should have posted about how the LDS church systematically tried to eradicate multiple peaceful tribes in the Utah territory during the 1800’s? Another option would be for the LDS church to celebrate the massacre of innocent men, women, and children to commemorate the original 9/11, the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
There is no persecution of the LDS church on Pie and Beer day. It is word play and not even remotely meant to harm nor disenfranchise members of the church. You must now note that less than 50% of Utahns identify as LDS, so your arguments carry even less weight.
I think thou dost protest too much.
Totally agree. In fact, I’ve used the same exact reasoning.
The comments arguing against you are incredibly counter productive. As an outsider that hasn’t posted on the bloggernacle in years they seem very antagonistic. (The kind of garbage that made me uninterested in posting for so long.) That tells me that regardless of the number of members getting root beer, the practice is rooted in belligerence towards the church. How relatively paltry pie and beer day is compared to world problems, limited to a small number of uber sophisticates, and offset compared to supposed Mormon offenses doesn’t change that. Telling Mormons to have a sense of humor about demeaning behavior towards them sounds like the gaslighting of an abuser. It shouldn’t be that hard to avoid the mocking and enjoy the parades, barbecue and fireworks yet somehow it is.
On the bright side, the pie and beer posts I see all over social media let me know who is worth avoiding. Thanks for the post. Good luck!
As someone who identifies as Mormon much of the time and ex-Mormon from time to time, I ask: what are you on about? I celebrate Pioneer Day acknowledging the sacrifices of families to build things that have made my life better. I celebrate pie and beer day to acknowledge the complexity and paradox highlighted in the comments here. Nothing malicious going on here from where I sit. Being more comfortable with the paradox and heterodoxy has been a blessing in my post-believing and post-angry leaving LDS practice.
Of course this kind of thing is in poor taste, and the comments here show why. When someone makes a joke at our expense, we’re required to laugh along with it and given the “lighten up Francis” treatment for refusing to go along. We can’t laugh at ourselves unless we’re also allowed to take ourselves seriously.
I’m just going to put this out there, as an former Mormon stuck in Utah, a state where politics and policy are heavily influenced by a religion that barely consumes 42% of its population, I relish in pie and beer day and celebrate it openly with my children.
It’s not about you, Stephen. It’s not even about offending Mormons…or shall we say, “persecuting” them. It’s my personal expression of freedom from religion. I delight in this day. I celebrate my emancipation from a system of control that has directly and deeply harmed me.
My kids love the variations on pie and beer we muck about with every year. It’s a good day.
What Beck said.
What were you doing on February 8th? Giving any thought to the extermination order Brigham Young gave in general conference, leading to the disappearance of 20K+ indigenous people that were murdered, sold into slavery, or forced to relocate? Didn’t think so.
https://ldsnews.org/the-latter-day-saint-indian-slave-trade-and-genocide/
The insistence on victimhood is a bizarre dysfunction among some people in the church. Portraying ourselves as victims (in Utah!?) does nothing to strengthen the church, nor does it make our beliefs more meaningful. It only makes us look weak, wimpy, and out of touch with the things that matter most both in our present culture and in the eternities.
Another way of putting this is to say that encouraging resentment about supposed slights like “Pie and Beer Day” is a terrible way of trying to unify the Saints. If that kind of thing can bring us together, then we’ve forgotten how to be neighbors, and we’ll be as useless as a snowflake in a sandstorm.
Most Latter-day Saints would see this post for the throwaway silliness that it is. The reason I’m wasting time and pixels on it is that it’s typical of an attitude among a faction of folks, lately of BYU, who seem to think that looking for things to be militantly offended about is a sign of their faithfulness. It’s very silly, but it’s also sad to see this from people who should know better.
Uncouth. lol
This is so incredibly embarrassing.
Maybe you should make a list of groups that it is normatively okay to be demeaning towards in the Latter-day Saint tradition and then delete this horseshit. I think African Americans, LGBTQ individuals, Native Americans, Catholics, women, Jews, scientists, secular humanists, and “apostates” might want you to consider the beam protruding so prominently from your eye.
The author writes as if those celebrating “Pie and Beer Day” are foreigners, outsiders hell-bent on crashing the locals’ party. The truth is that most of these people share the same heritage as the people the author identifies with. They have every bit as much pioneer ancestry and every bit as much right to decide how they will commemorate that heritage.
So the word of wisdom talks about a mild drink made with barley being ok to drink. It’s talking about beer Brother Stephen. Beer was a mild drink, whiskey was a strong drink. Joseph Smith even drank wine in Carthage jail. Brigham Young had a distillery in Salt Lake. Joseph Smith claimed that the word Mormon meant more good, but if I call you a Mormon I bet you would be offended.
I agree with Stephen… Pie and Beer day is a lame way for lame people to take a jab at the church.I see no reason to pretend it’s funny.
I thought the genesis of the joke was that Joseph Smith Sr.’s Palmyra store served both pie and beer
Imagine one church calling another “the whore of all the earth” and their members doing blackface at roadshows to raise money for ward activities. I don’t think Latter-day Saints have much of a leg to stand on when complaining about poor taste or uncouth gestures. I’ve witnessed many a Mormonization of other religion’s hymns, holidays and ceremonies in my days as a 7th generation member. this especially happens abroad. On a personal note, I was born on pioneer day, so being able to associate my special day and the fireworks with something not related to the church is a welcome opportunity.
I’m sure Brigham Young’s all, but forgotten distilleries would love pie and beer day….
Oh hun. You really don’t know about the church’s Dixie Wine Mission or the distilleries owned by Brigham Young, do you? The pioneers consumed large amounts of both beer and pie
Those of us who are dissatisfied with the church are not offended by this public holiday. We just don’t want to spend it lauding the church. We’re taking the day off and choosing to make it a day with our families and good food.
Nobody is hurting anyone here. You appear to just be upset that people are having a potluck on a public holiday that involves a menu that you don’t like.
Would you like us to check with you, or directly with church leadership next year before we plan out our July 24th bbq, to make sure that we’re not serving any other unauthorized menu items, or participating in any unapproved activities?
Like I said, it’s the counterarguments that are the tell. How many variations are we going to see on:
– Mormons are terrible, so the pioneers shouldn’t be celebrated anyway.
– Mormons control everything in Utah, so mocking their history is okay.
– As an ex-Mormon, I think it’s perfectly okay to make fun of Mormon traditions.
– Mormons aren’t allowed to object when others make fun of them.
But mocking people’s heritage is always in poor taste, it’s good to say so, and the howls when Stephen points it out are telling.
How did you behave on Juneteenth? Were you all “I don’t know why this is a federal holiday.” or “Why do I get the day off when I’m not Black?” or “Freedom is from July 4th.” Because a LOT of Mormons were and that is ACTUALLY offensive.
Meanwhile, there are people in Utah celebrating the arrival of their ancestors in Utah in the way that they see fit and they aren’t bothering anyone. They aren’t under any obligation to celebrate exactly the way that you do. You’re choosing to be upset by a choice of beverage because it feeds your delusion of persecution. Mormons are now the ones who do the persecuting in Utah and Southern Idaho and have been for generations. You get to have a parade through town without protest. Does that happen in your town for Pride? For Juneteenth? No? That’s my point.
I’m sorry, but the LDS church is anything but disenfranchised and oppressed, especially in Utah. To consider that implies probably the most prominent victim complex imaginable.
Let people enjoy their beer and pie in peace Karen.
Pie-n-Beer Day is a harmless joke that’s meant in good fun. It’s a sign of confidence to know how to take a joke. It’s a sign of snobbery to not know how to take a joke. Don’t go all “off with their heads” about a harmless pun.
Besides, Pioneer Day is not and has never been a mainly religious observance akin to Good Friday. It doesn’t commemorate any sacred event in our theology. It’s always been a fun day for festivals, parties, and parades. Calling it “Pie and Beer Day” is a way for folk to get in on the fun if the history of Pioneer Day isn’t relevant to them. It doesn’t blaspheme anything in our theology or our history. It’s just an excuse for
pie
and
beer.
Speaking of which, I had neither pie nor root beer yesterday. I should make sure to have some today. Yum yum yum!
I’ve enjoyed the irony of people going way, way over the top to explain how they thought the OP went over the top. It’s like screaming “STOP SCREAMING!” at someone who’s talking too loud.
LOL what a snowflake
Well, I do so enjoy a bit of bacon on porkover.
Normally I would agree with many of the comments about the original poster just needing to get over it but this one hit me a bit different today. As a man who stayed in the LDS church when his now ex wife left the church i have negative feelings towards this particular mockery. My ex has used this alternate celebration as a way to mock my pioneer heritage and has passed that viewpoint to my children. Somebody brought up pie and beer day today at work and I was really surprised how much it negatively impacted me. It actually made me very uncomfortable. If it were simply a fun play on words with the chance to eat some good food and drink some root beer or alcoholic beer, as your choice may be, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. When someone has made it one of their ways to mock you and to alienate your children to your beliefs it hits a bit different.
Is your cult really so weak that people drinking beer and eating pie on Pioneer Day is considered persecution? How disgusting is it of you guys to celebrate the death and slavery of native Americans?
Ya know, I never much cared for Elder Bednar’s old “Choose not to be offended” talk (what about not giving offense in the first place?), but this post has reminded me of the wisdom of his words, well done!
here from reddit and yes i too hope this is your last post for a while lmao stick to your guns on that one <3
Pontius P., it’s not true that Pioneer Day has no sacred significance. The trek west had a huge impact on the Church and how members saw themselves. It’s our Exodus, and we memorialize it in hymns, lessons, talks and re-enactments.
It’s really not that difficult to understand that demeaning someone else’s holiday is always going to be a jerk move on some level, and trying to justify why it’s okay in this one case just makes you look like more of a jerk.
Good Lord, man. Get a life.
What a ridiculous thing to be mad about. Maybe if the Mormon church did things like use all its money on caring for folks who are food or housing insecure instead of malls (which ironically sells both pie and beer). If they stopped using lawyers as historians. If they treated women with even a fraction of the respect they profess to. If they owned their racist past for what it was- racist leadership. If they made retributions to the indigenous tribes they displaced/slaughtered. If they stopped calling the 14 year old girls “almost 15” to make it sound like JS wasn’t a pedophile. If they admitted that they don’t know shit and there’s no way to tell if they’re speaking as a man or a prophet. If they stopped covering up abuse. If they apologized to the LGBT community. . . If they made amends for more horrific things than I can possibly recount here! MAYBE, y’all would be more deserving of respect. As it is, maybe just be glad it’s a playful pun instead of the fucked up stuff you’ve done to others who don’t lap up your kool-aid.
There’s this concept in our society of “punching up” vs “punching down.” As in, it’s ok to make fun of someone in a position of power over you but not the other way around. And I find it interesting that both active LDS people and Exmos feel that they’re on the receiving end of “punching down” (which would explain the tension in this comment thread).
It’s a complicated power dynamic. On the one hand, Exmos are discriminated against by the church and church sponsored institutions like BYU. They’re often socially discriminated against in Utah (LDS parents often won’t let their kids play with exmo kids) and feel underrepresented by political leadership. On the other hand, active Mormons have very little social capital outside their own ward boundaries. They are the butt of a good many jokes from South Park to Blazing Saddles and endure seething contempt from their would-be bedfellows the evangelicals.
So is it “punching down” to poke fun at something like Pioneer Day? Depends on how put upon you feel, I suppose, regardless of which side of the issue you’re on. And for the record, I’m of the opinion that Pie and Beer day is mostly a fun attempt at inclusiveness but YMMV.
Royal I’m so sorry. I can understand your feelings which are totally valid. I just want to clarify re Kirkstall’s comment, I don’t think it’s right to mock or “punch up” or “punch down” on anyone. I don’t feel like the “pie and beer day” tradition is generally anything other than a fun play on words. If anything, in my experience it’s unifying because it’s a way for everyone to participate in a fun way. At work, we have pie in the break room. At the family gathering we have pizza and root beer. I personally love to honor the pioneers because they are my ancestors and my heroes but it’s kind of obnoxious to expect every citizen of Utah to feel the same.
I think it’s the majority culture who must be “mature” and tolerate, or even embrace, those who are demonstrating that they don’t feel like they are recognized as belonging.
Utah life remains overwhelmingly a reflection of our church’s values and culture.
Jonathan Green wrote:
“Pontius P., it’s not true that Pioneer Day has no sacred significance. The trek west had a huge impact on the Church and how members saw themselves. It’s our Exodus, and we memorialize it in hymns, lessons, talks and re-enactments.
It’s really not that difficult to understand that demeaning someone else’s holiday is always going to be a jerk move on some level, and trying to justify why it’s okay in this one case just makes you look like more of a jerk.”
Ok, I implicitly called you a snob, and you implicitly called me a jerk. Now that we’ve got the name-calling over with, can we move on?
Pioneer Day is MY holiday just as much as it is YOUR holiday. When I talk about Pioneer Day, and Pie-n-Beer Day, I am not “demeaning someone else’s holiday.” I have just as much right to interpret it as you do, and you don’t have any more right to demean my interpretation of it than you have to demean mine.
I have at least 20 direct-line ancestors who came to Utah during the migration years 1847-1868, including two or three who came in companies embarking in June 1847. My ancestors pioneered and settled several towns in the Salt Lake Valley and southern Utah. My entire family is TBM or active churchgoing nuanced, though I privately identify as PIMO. My wife and her family might be called modern-day pioneers, as her mother, aunt, and grandmother are first-generation immigrants and first-generation converts. I am of deep pioneer stock; she IS a pioneer. Pioneer Day is OUR holiday.
And you know what? I’m 100% ok with Pie-n-Beer Day.
One of my ancestors, a first-generation convert and immigrant from England in the 1850s, wrote a memoir and poem book for his posterity. I spent months transcribing that poem book and I put it up on Amazon for anyone to read. My ancestor was deeply involved in his community and he wrote several length Pioneer Day poems, some of which were published in the newspaper at the time. They are full of admiration and praise for the pioneers, but NOT ONCE do they make out the day to be one of deep religious significance akin to Good Friday (which was your example in the OP). No, it’s a day for feasting, festivals, and parties – a day for paying respect and honor to the pioneers who came so far and worked so hard in such adverse circumstances. But it’s not an Exodus that must be commemorated with a Passover in a deeply symbolic, deeply religious ritual meal commanded by God Almighty. It’s not a day that commemorates the sacrifice of God Himself on the Cross as the fulcrum of all Time and Eternity. It’s a festival that says, we as a people (a cultural and religious people) had some pretty bad times back there, but now we’re here and we’ve had some pretty good times here, so let’s tip our hats to the old folks and let’s go have some fun. The Days of ’47 parade, which has been the leading observation of Pioneer Day for decades, is kitschy patriotic star-spangled rootin-tootin fun. That doesn’t sound like a sacred high holy day to me, it sounds like a fun summer holiday with a barbecue in the park!
Even if Pioneer Day were as theologically sacred as Good Friday, Easter, Christmas, or Passover, that doesn’t make it inappropriate or demeaning for other people to enjoy Pie-n-Beer Day. Easter, that highest of high holy days for Christians, is thoroughly subsumed in the culture by the Easter Bunny and other symbols of spring from outside the Christian liturgical tradition, making it broadly enjoyable as a springtime holiday for everyone. Christmas is as much about Santa Claus as it is about Jesus in the culture, and there are innumerable associated traditions around the world that distract from the core Nativity story or add depth and richness to a winter festival, depending on your perspective. Only the most uptight Christians are seriously bothered by everything else that goes on with Easter and Christmas. There are also other Jewish traditions that go with Passover to make it fun, beyond the ritual meal. Heck, the beginning of the Easter season is the often thoroughly bacchanalic Carnival, which kicks off Lent, which leads in to Easter. Why, then, can we not WELCOME Pie-n-Beer Day as a way for other people to join in the fun of our unique little midsummer holiday? Why not WELCOME other people using pie and beer as an excuse to get together with family and friends on July 24, even if the legacy of the pioneers is about as important to them as the Nativity story is to a family of Buddhist immigrants from Taiwan who get together on December 25 for food and fun?
I believe in Pie-n-Beer Day because I believe in families and friends getting together for food and fun. I believe in Pie-n-Beer Day because I believe in people finding ways to participate in their communities and enjoying things with or beside their communities even when it doesn’t really matter. I believe in Pie-n-Beer Day because “we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
Ok – that’s all for now. I hope everyone had a very happy holiday, however sacred or profane they made it, and whatever they chose to eat or drink on the day.
One more thing – I have to copy over a comment from Reddit because it is both true, and entirely germane to the OP.
OP text – Also imagine, if you will, that this Jewish or Muslim or what have you group had a local holiday that celebrated their escape from persecution and their settlement in their new land.
OP text – In such a situation, having an alternative day that used wordplay to come up with an alternative holiday, where one ate pork would be considered in poor taste given the genesis of the holiday.
Reddit commenter krebstar4ever – He’s literally describing Passover! Christianity took the Jewish holiday and made it Easter. In most languages, Easter is named after the Hebrew word for Passover (Pesach). During Passover, Jews traditionally eat only unleavened bread. But many cultures traditionally celebrate Easter with special, leavened cakes and bread (eg hot cross buns).
My comment – After all, Easter is called Pascua (Passover) in Spanish. So this complaint about Pie-n-Beer Day doesn’t have much to stand on, since the hypothetically offensive alternative practice is literally our sacred Christian holiday of Easter overlapping/superseding the sacred Jewish holiday of Passover. Unless the OP is willing to engage with the long history of Christian persecution of Jews to say that the particular case of Passover and Easter is not “demeaning someone else’s holiday” and “being a jerk on some level.”
typo correction: delete
you don’t have any more right to demean my interpretation of it than you have to demean mine
and replace with
you don’t have any more right to demean my interpretation of it that I have to demean yours
Pontius, sorry, my bad. The first half of my comment was directed at you specifically – I think the pioneer story really is sacred – but the second half wasn’t directed at you at all. I should have made that clear or split it up into two comments. I posted in haste and apologize.