- Chad Nielsen on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “Just to be precise, there is a difference between saying that a couple of articles and books delegitimize the existence of “certain people” and erase a history of violent persecution, and having scholarship question the historicity of the Book of Mormon and challenge how we have applied the idea of Lamanites to Indigenous peoples in the nineteenth, twentieth, and twenty-first centuries. To do so is an oversimplification. I personally have mixed feelings about some of what those scholars say – particularly demands that the Church abandon the Book of Mormon. The Boxer book I mentioned in the post falls into a similar category, and you’ll see some of my mixed feelings about it when my review goes live in a couple of weeks. At the same time, the violent persecutions that early Latter-day Saints experienced and the efforts of White Protestant Americans to force Mormons in Utah to follow their expectations about capitalism, marriage practices, and theocracy give me more sympathy towards the Indigenous peoples who experienced similar things, but more intensely: When you think about scale, the Hawn’s Mill Massacre is the most widely known mass murder committed against Latter-day Saints, which killed around 17 people. We probably had a couple of dozen other people die in the Missouri exodus. Hundreds died on the way west to Utah, with the Martin and Willie Handcart companies being the most notable examples (though logistical challenges rather than direct persecution were at play there). But, by comparison, the Bear River Massacre alone killed 250 to 493 Shoshone people. The massacre was not carried out by Latter-day Saints, but it was done in “defense” of Latter-day settlers in Cache Valley. Likewise, during the Long Walk of the Navajo, up to 3,500 Dine people died from starvation and disease over four years. Again, that was another incident headed by the U.S. Army rather than Mormons, but was done, in part, because of complaints by Latter-day Saint settlers in the region during the Black Hawk War. Beyond deaths, there is also the concern of cultural genocide – we get upset about the efforts to end polygamy, communal living, and theocracy during the Raid, but as soon as those changes were made, the government got off our backs (even if conservative Evangelical Christians never have). Compare that with the history of Native Americans, who have had political autonomy challenged repeatedly, and faced efforts like the government boarding schools to strip children of their ancestral culture and ways of living, or “Kill the Indian in him, and save the man.” This was practiced well into the twentieth century. In fact, there are still a couple of Native American boarding schools in operation to this day. This doesn’t undo or delegitimize that Latter-day Saints died in Missouri or that we faced violent persecution repeatedly throughout the nineteenth century, but I note this to explain why I feel some sympathy towards Indigenous peoples and patience about extreme expressions in their scholarship to make the point that they have faced a lot of violent persecution as well (both physical and cultural), are still feeling the effects of it, and would appreciate changes being made to improve the situation for them.” Mar 6, 09:16
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “John Mansfield: Priestley and Lavoisier isolated and studied oxygen in ways not previously done. Priestly documented how to generate oxygen, and it’s effects on both mice and himself. What exactly did Bridger “discover” about Great Salt Lake? That it was big, wet and salty? Were the locals unaware of that?” Mar 6, 09:08
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: ““Settler colonialism” absolutely is deployed to delegitimize the existence and independence of certain peoples and I’m tired of pretending it doesn’t. One only needs to read Hemopereki Simon or Thomas Murphy to see that plain as day.” Mar 6, 07:55
- on Latter-day Saint Where’s Waldo and Stephen Biesty Cross-Sections: “On the one hand, this is AI slop. Yes, there is art (“artifice”) and skill involved in crafting the AI prompts to get what you want, and there can be value in using AI tools as part of a larger creative process. But this is still slop. On the other hand, I am highly amused by all the hallucinations, confabulations, and conflations in the Kirtland Temple cross-section. Clearly, this AI tool does not have enough domain-specific knowledge either in the Kirtland Temple or in cross-section illustrations to come up with a remotely convincing model of the building’s interior and grounds.” Mar 6, 07:31
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “bmp, that part is well known and hasn’t been erased. Every history that I’ve read about Latter-day Saints and Native Americans admits that. And yes, I also take pride in many of the accomplishments of my pioneer ancestors. (I wouldn’t be publishing a biography of one of them in a couple months if that wasn’t the case.) But that doesn’t change that their settlement here came a huge cost in human life to the people who already lived here, much larger than the loss of life and resources that the Latter-day Saints endured in those previous persecutions. The Latter-day Saints came and took the land with the assumption that because of their race and religion, they had a right to do so. To me, that isn’t something I feel the need to defend as just and righteous, because it wasn’t. As you say, we don’t have to love every part of the story. It’s definately something that I feel conflicted over. John Mansfield, sure. I will also note that the records of the Domínguez–Escalante expedition predate Bridger, which contains references to the Timpanogous tribe telling them about the Great Salt Lake, so there are other paper trails at play too.” Mar 5, 20:13
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “If we’re talking about deceptive language, “settler colonialism” is also a term that gets used to delegitimize the existence of certain people and erase a history of violent persecution. The Salt Lake Valley was the third option for the Saints after they had been expelled from Missouri and Nauvoo. We don’t have to love every part of their story, but what they built in Utah was undeniably impressive.” Mar 5, 18:22
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “Joseph Priestley is said to have “discovered” oxygen in 1774, which he called “dephlogisticated air.” Lavoisier understood better what Priestley had discovered and named it oxygen in 1777. Oxygen had of course already been used by people for countless generations to burn fires and for respiration. Were we to consider simply breathing as intimate knowledge of oxygen then lizards, beetles, and some bacteria also have long had that intimate knowledge. Gabriel Bowen, a professor at the U. of Utah, wrote a paper last year, “Multi-Millennial Context for Post-Colonial Hydroecological Change in Great Salt Lake.” His multi-millenial understanding of the lake comes from studying sediments. A line can be drawn from such work back to Stansbury, and from Stansbury to Fremont, and Fremont to Bridger. That is where that line begins. Bridger discovered the Great Salt Lake to the same extent that Priestley discovered oxygen. They both uncovered things and made them known to the world at large.” Mar 5, 14:52
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “I always appreciate every effort to combat our white supremacy/settler colonialism. Thank you for a thought-provoking post.” Mar 5, 10:07
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “Off-topic, I know, but your story reminds me of a class I took in early 1976 on Presidential Character in which the professor took note of “Reagan” popping up on billboards (he had never noticed it before) and speculating that it was a stealth campaign tactic on behalf of the Gipper.” Mar 5, 09:06
- on The “Jim Bridger Discovered the Great Salt Lake” Billboards and the Myth of the Empty West: “A Turtle Named Mack, sure. If there’s anyone left alive here at that point to put one up.” Mar 5, 07:58
