- Mhermitmom on Tangled Assets and Legal Erasure: Emma Smith’s Fight for Financial Survival: “I think this proves that JS assumed he was going to live to the second coming. He did what he liked with other people’s money as he saw fit because he was THE prophet, laws and fiduciary integrity be damned. Then when he dies, the mess is left for other people to fix. Is it any wonder Emma fought tooth and nail to secure assets she could support her family with? Why would she want to be the third, seventh, or tenth wife to someone else in hopes they would be merciful enough to keep her children fed, clothed and housed. The coverture law saw to it that independence was illusory. Then there’s Joseph’s, get in personal debt and put the property in the church trust ploy. Have the wealthy always tried to do this kind of shell game? And what does that say about current church finances today? So taking care of widows and orphans take a back seat to protecting church assets. Got it. Everyone fend for themselves I guess.” Aug 16, 15:37
- on Tangled Assets and Legal Erasure: Emma Smith’s Fight for Financial Survival: “That’s a fair point that they aren’t mutually exclusive categories. On the comparison with Mary Fielding Smith, though, I would note that even though she married Heber C. Kimball, she got very little support.” Aug 15, 23:52
- on Faith Is a Hope, by Alma the Younger (Alma 32): “I think Alma’s tree has direct allusions to Lehi’s tree–especially in the way he talks about the fruit. And interestingly it is the word that is the means to getting to (or growing) both of them. And so, speaking of the word (as well as the fruit) we should be asking ourselves Brian Regan’s famous question: how do I get that goodness in me? And the answer (IMO) is by doing what the apostles have counseled us to do: regular prayer and scripture study; partaking of the sacrament; and going to the temple as often as our circumstances will allow. That said, certainly other means of worship may be added to those basic practices–but it is those four that must serve as our foundation stones for receiving the word.” Aug 15, 16:08
- on Tangled Assets and Legal Erasure: Emma Smith’s Fight for Financial Survival: ““But were the assets of the church Emma‘s to claim? I don’t see it.” Agreed. And the comment that she was not a legal person is just reading offense into reality. She had no legal right, nor should she. She had every moral right and there’s no doubt they would have helped her. Mary Fielding Smith carred for Hyrum’s children from his first marriage, and when he died she remained single for 10 weeks before marrying Heber C Kimball, so presumably that’s what support for Emma would have looked like and it’s well known how she felt about that. But I suspect much of Emma’s promise to be an antagonist to the church was “kept” through her denials of plural marriage and the minor schism she eventually caused in the church. I wonder what things would have looked like if she went west.” Aug 15, 14:30
- on Tangled Assets and Legal Erasure: Emma Smith’s Fight for Financial Survival: “Your first paragraph sounds eerily similar to the endless debates about the Civil War. It was really about slavery, no it was really about states rights, no it was really about this, no it was really about that. I’m sure Emma‘s financial insecurity played a role, but to say that it was the “real” reason for her actions is too simplistic. And as for your last paragraph why would bitter antagonist and grieving, fearful mother be mutually exclusive? The fact is that Joseph never contributed anything monetarily to the church. From the very beginning, he relied on other people’s money, first from David Whitmer and later from often very poor members who believed it was their religious duty to donate their tithes and offerings. I find it very easy to see the side of the apostles who after Joseph died saw that all of the financial assets of the restoration derived from the tithes and offerings of people who sacrificed in giving them, and thus belonged to the church and not to Emma. Should the church have provided for Emma and her family? Absolutely, that was their responsibility. But were the assets of the church Emma‘s to claim? I don’t see it.” Aug 15, 11:40
- on 19th-21st Century Biology Disciple Scholars : “Maybe not the absolute tip-top, but if you’re willing to expand it a bit I nominate Arthur Hasler. He discovered how salmon navigate back to their home stream to spawn, among other things.” Aug 15, 08:55
- on Tangled Assets and Legal Erasure: Emma Smith’s Fight for Financial Survival: “Feeling cornered and terrified of being left destitute with her children, Emma resorted to hardball tactics. According to the journals of William Clayton, Emma threatened that if Church leaders did not appoint a trustee she approved of, she would “do the church all the injury she can by keeping the Lots which are in her name.” You know that sounds exactly like what a bitter antagonist would do. This quote and story reads like the proverbial statement, don’t pee on my leg and say it’s raining. It sounds like this point of view is going out of it’s way to read virtue of a pure hearted mother fighting for herself and children. But threatening to injure the church (or at least give an apostle that impression) if you don’t get church property handed over to you does not make hey look good. But craven.” Aug 15, 00:55
- on 19th-21st Century Biology Disciple Scholars : “Perhaps Michael Whiting, who had the cover story on Nature for his evidence that phasmids evolved wings twice.” Aug 14, 13:53
- on Faith Is a Hope, by Alma the Younger (Alma 32): “Here’s a question that arose for me when reading verse 23 this time: What form(s) might be used by angels to use to impart God’s word to men, women, and children? Since this was not a 21st century Christian audience he was speaking to their understanding of the translated English word “angel” would most definitely meant something different than what we hear today. Perhaps their definition would have been closer to the Native American traditions than ours: “In Native American traditions, lesser spirits and animal guides are not separate from nature, but are part of a deeply interconnected universe where everything—plants, rocks, rivers, and animals—possesses a living spirit. Rather than being viewed as “servants” of a distant god like biblical angels, these entities are seen as relatives, teachers, and powerful neighbors.”” Aug 14, 12:53
- on Tangled Assets and Legal Erasure: Emma Smith’s Fight for Financial Survival: “Yeah, real life is complicated. It is overly simplistic to broadly say that people who leave the church are sinners, lazy learners, casual disciples, too-easily-offended, and so forth. Sometimes there might be real and compelling reasons, and sometimes we might not deal well with those reasons. To the affected persons, those reasons are realities. I appreciate efforts to re-visit history and to add to the richness of our understanding.” Aug 14, 10:10
