- Kent Larsen on Judge Not in Church—or anywhere (Or What Did Church Lead You to Think About Yesterday), 7/12: “Here’s a few of my thoughts in reaction to what I experienced in Church recently: I’ve noticed that we’re singing more “children’s songs” — i.e., songs that would have been segregated into the “Children’s Songbook” in the past. As I understand it, the Church is eliminating the Children’s hymnbook in favor of everything in a single book. But what interests me is how this will affect our understanding of hymns. Since the hymns oriented towards children generally have simpler melodies and use simpler language, will our understanding of what a hymn is change? Will more complex hymns go out-of-favor? And will we benefit from more people singing and more connection as a result? One speaker recently said something about pride that led me to redefine it — pride is thinking that my contributions are more noteworthy than others. Like what I said in the op above, there’s an element of comparison here, since we’re comparing our contributions to others. Not only do we have different abilities and different situations that limit or expand our contributions, but we also are leaving out a host of other factors. Is pride just about comparison and judgment? Someone in Sunday school used the phrase “voting with their feet” when talking about who comes to church. In addition to thinking about how they are essentially making a judgment when they do that, it led me to the phrase I’ve used a lot in the last few years: “The Life Changing Magic of Just Showing Up.” The phrase doesn’t say whose life is changed when we show up — I must admit that I often think about it as my life when I show up. But it also can be life changing for those who I show up for — whether it’s service or just attending church. Showing up is definitely life changing. ” Jul 22, 15:25
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “I agree that it’s unnecessary and certainly not scriptural. I also am not fond of the practice of having all the other deacons wait at the sacrament table until the bishop takes the sacrament. The handbook says the presiding officer receives the sacrament first, but it doesn’t say we are supposed to make a big show of it. I’m not sure of the current handbook, but not too many years ago, it did say that deacons can be walking to their assigned place while the bishop takes the sacrament. The wait-at-the-table practice seems to come and go over the years depending on the ward and the bishop and the Aaronic priesthood advisors. A few years ago, we had an advisor who always assigned himself to the pass to the bishop. The deacons were perfectly able to see when the bishop had taken the sacrament, but the advisor would nevertheless turn around and give the most exaggerated nod imaginable to signal the deacons that they could leave the table. I’m not sure, but he might have been monitoring the moment the bishop swallowed, or perhaps when the bread had fully transited the esophagus. For a short while in my ward, they had the deacons wait for both the stake president and the bishop to take the sacrament. I think the bishop put an end to that. There is only one person presiding.” Jul 22, 14:46
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “Here’s the one I struggle with. Church protocol says that only the presiding officer in the meeting can decide if the congregation may stand for the singing of a hymn. I’m not sure if this directive is currently in the handbook, but even if it is, many people don’t know about it. I’ve heard more than one first-person account of being at stake conference and seeing the music leader be publicly corrected when they unknowingly motion for the congregation to stand for the intermediate hymn. I just don’t understand how this can possibly be so important that it’s worth embarrassing some poor unsuspecting music leader in public.” Jul 22, 12:44
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “I’m with you on this. Church culture is already more hierarchical than it needs to be, and it doesn’t need this reinforcement. (I’d argue it’s even more hierarchical than the Handbook calls for. Most members would say the bishop leads everything in a ward, while the Handbook says that for some big areas the bishop “coordinates” while the EQ and RS presidents “lead.”) But Jonathan Haidt helped me have more charity about it. Apologies to those who know this literature well, but in his book The Righteous Mind he describes asking research subjects to respond to a hypothetical situation: You’re at a big family reunion, and each family will perform a comedy skit. The script for your family’s skit calls for you to pretend to slap your father. He is enthusiastic about the skit, and it has been carefully choreographed so there is no risk of you actually hitting him. Will you do it? I would, but when I picture that situation I can feel my gut-level respect for authority saying “This is wrong!” in a way that it doesn’t at all if I replace my father with one of my brothers. (For one thing, my brothers are all hams who would milk the scene for all it is worth.) I’m sure Peter had that same gut feeling when Jesus washed his feet. Some people just seem to be born with a stronger gut-level respect for authority than others, and for those people little things, like taking the sacrament first, or the bishop’s first counselor sitting on his right and his second counselor on his left, just feel deeply right. I’d still get rid of them, but I understand where it’s coming from. (I think this also explains why some members bristle at any suggestion of prophetic fallibility, while for others it’s obvious.)” Jul 22, 11:36
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “My first Sunday as a deacon we had the bishopric on the stand, and the stake president, and one of his counselors, and a high councilor, and some other guy. Being a less-ignorant-than-typical deacon, I knew who the stake president was and that he out ranked the bishop. But when I tried to give him the bread, he pointed to his right, toward the bishop. So I went two seats to the right to the bishop, who pointed to his left. I was, at this point, thoroughly confused, but obviously they wanted me to give the bread to the ‘other guy’ who was sitting between them. Turns out the other guy was from the first quorum of the 70. I’m sure they announced his presence at the start of the meeting, but no 12 year-old pays attention to stuff like that. Taking the sacrament with the right hand has been in and out of the handbook multiple times. Its a prime example of how the handbook documents both hard doctrine, and arbitrary protocols, and that we have no way of distinguishing between the two.” Jul 22, 10:39
- on A Review: After Happiness: Living with Faith in a Time of Crisis: “Perhaps it’s just me, but I also think that some of the *messaging* surrounding the Proclamation has no explicit support in the document itself – such as that women should not get further education or job skills. I would argue (and I think this is a common belief, but for the ultra-conservatives who are often the die-hards in the wards who try to drive culture a certain way) that gaining specialized education and/or training becomes more and more important for women as time passes as a safeguard for her own well-being and safety, let alone for the light and knowledge she can pass on.” Jul 22, 10:17
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “AMEN on this. With changing cultural mores, this sends a jarring signal to anyone paying attention IMHO” Jul 22, 09:59
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “IMO this is where that tradition came from… Up until the spanish flu outbreak (1918 i think?) the bishop at that point in all wards was the one and only person that blessed the sacrament. In doing so, he took it first just like the Catholic priest do today. Our sacrament looked very much like a Catholic version with members coming up to the bishop to drink out of the same cup. Not sure if the bishop put the bread in the mouth or hand for the members back then. We started to pass the sacrament because of the spanish flu outbreak. Since the bishop blessed and took the sacrament first up until this point, him being first stuck. Typical tradition turned doctrine that we tend to do a lot in the church. Like the tradition that the sacrament should be taken with the right hand. It is back in the handbook.” Jul 22, 08:47
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “The proposed iconoclasm sound fine by me, but isn’t the stake president’s counselor or whoever sitting near the bishop, and the bishop just quietly motions the deacon approaching him to instead give that other man first offering of the bread and water? One thing I enjoy about visiting other wards is the variety of arrangements the priests and deacons have for conducting the ordinance, keeping it an ordinance and not a ceremony. “aren’t going to help the kind of members who reactively disregard or attack leaders” Well, good luck with that.” Jul 22, 08:33
- on Unnecessary Spiritual Hierarchies: Leaders Receiving the Sacrament First: “Thanks for highlighting this, Stephen. It’s definitely unnecessary, yet it persists. Maybe it isn’t a huge thing. But maybe it’s a symptom of a huge thing?” Jul 22, 08:04
