- Dave K on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “My two cents. We will have as much agency in the next life as here, even more. The sealings we perform for ourselves and our ancestors are invitations and opportunities; they never bind or force against one’s will. If I’m with my wife in the eternities, it’s because we continue to choose so each day, not because we’re trapped by a ceremony from our earthly life. The elephant in the room is whether spirit children are created through a similar pregnancy process in the eternities as mortality. I’ve come to reject that notion. I believe Joseph’s teaching that spirits are eternal and are found/adopted by the gods. Pregnancy is only a mortal experience. If I obtain godhood, I’ll be one of many parents for adopted spirits we find together, just as I have not two but many gods as my heavenly parents now – hence the title Elohim, literally “the gods”. I’ve also come to stop caring what eternal bodies look like or what genitalia that may have. Maybe I’ll appear as I do now – a middle age balding white dude. Maybe I’ll choose to be a falcon or a pink river dolphin. I don’t know or really care. What I do care about are the godly attributes (think beatitudes or section 121). Those are the markers of godhood – what we’ll recognize when we meet the savior.” Nov 22, 06:35
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “I’m actually less curious about how eternal marriages will work, and more curious about what do those aren’t living a Celestial law doing. There are lots of non-members who get married and stay married their entire lives, and seem to want to continue that in the next life. Will they somehow lose interest in a super long term relationship that if they aren’t worthy of a celestial marriage? What is different about Celestial people in wanting or being able to maintain a marriage relationship vs the non-Celestial people? It seems odd that God would prevent marital relations between two willing immortal individuals who are agents unto themselves. So my best explanation is that something changes with our desires when resurrected. It’s not that I want to focus on non-Celestial Kingdom individuals, but I think understanding the difference will help understand how Celestial marriages will function.” Nov 21, 23:36
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. … And worlds without number have I created; … The first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many…. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they … Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins…which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them … This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself. … And the Father and I are one. I am in the Father and the Father in me; and inasmuch as ye have received me, ye are in me and I in you. … That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us … And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him. So if you’ll excuse the various selections of scripture, I don’t think a lot of conjecture is needed to concluded that God’s work stretches far into the past and far into the future. The creation of worlds and populating of them and propagating of humanity across the universe (whatever and wherever that may be) is essentially the work God and all who have become one with him across of eternity. God intends for his children to become like him. What was done here in this world will be done in others. I do not believe God was lying or being hyperbolic when he said what his work is and how he intends to give us the same power he has and how Abraham will carry on like God to have eternal increase in the eternities and that same promise extends to us. I’m not sure how much more clear I can be other than saying everything that God is doing was done before and will be done again in the future and if we are faithful we will be doing it, united perfectly as one with God through the atonement. Worlds without number. We have the only theology that actually looks to the eternal number of starts across the sky and can wonder, “is there even enough room for what God has planned?” I’m not worried about petty religious disputes with trinitarians who have their nose in the mud of this earth and try to drag our glorious theology down by insisting we can not share in our Father’s glory when the precise mission of his son was to enable exactly that.” Nov 21, 19:07
- on A Review: Pearl of Great Price: A Study Edition for Latter-day Saints: “Thanks for the review and the link. Taking a look now.” Nov 21, 18:04
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “Here’s a few more quotes from JS that I think stress the point that he hoped that have his friends as part of his eternal “nucleus of heaven” in the next life. April 16, 1843: “More painful to me the thought of anhilitation than death, if I had no expectation of seeing my mother Brother & Sisters & friends again my heart would burst in a moment & I should go down to my grave. The expectation of seeing my friends in the morning of the resurrection cheers my soul, and make be bear up against the evils of life, it is like their taking a long journey. & on their return we meet them with increased joy.” July 23, 1843, Choppy notes from Willard Richards: ““frie[n]dship is the grand fundamental prin[c]iple of Mormonism. to revolutin [revolutionize?] civilize the world.— pour forth love. fr[i]e[n]dship like Bro Tulys Blacksmith shop.” The later editors expanded that final phrase to say: ““Friendship is like brother Turley in his blacksmith shop welding iron to iron.” JS spoke of baptism for the dead forming a “welding link” in DC 128:18 and seemed to want “welding” to bind friends as well. In an April 15, 1842 conference, JS spoke of a dispute between John E. Page and Orson Hyde saying, “we will fellowship Elder Page until Elder Hyde comes, and we will then weld them together and make them one.”” Nov 21, 13:20
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “All good points, RLD, and I think they indicate a number of clashing forces in our doctrine of eternal marriage. Again, Plato taught eternal marriage and I’d argue that eternal marriage inherently brings up the question of non-monogamy since there are so many cases of spousal death, divorce, etc. That’s what the Sadducees wanted to address: what if a woman had 7 husbands? Who would she be married to in the next life? I have heard lots of talk in the church and on the Bloggernacle of there being plenty of unwed souls (lots of infant deaths) to fill in the gaps. That makes sense, but I’d also point about that Joseph Smith did see interlocking marriages as a way to bind loved ones together. Again, I’ve argued for a long time that JS’s original plan was shared marriage (men AND women being able to have multiple spouses) but that JS switched to polygyny in 1843 when he got pushback from his close followers (especially Hyrum). DC 132 was about the switch and verse 41 refers to the old system where women could have multiple husbands. Another issue for JS was the belief in wanting to make his close connections in this life eternal beyond the nuclear family. Here’s a couple of quotes I think are useful from other people since we don’t have a ton from JS himself (pretty secretive about all this). This first one is from John Bennett, a scoundrel, yes, but a close adviser for some time who did leak some correct information. I think Bennett was in the ballpark with this quote: “It has been revealed to him [JS] that there will be no harmony in heaven unless the Saints select their companions and marry IN TIME, FOR ETERNITY!!! They must marry in time so as to begin to form the sincere attachment and unsophisticated affection which is so necessary to consummate in eternity in order to the peace of Heaven.” “Letter from Gen. Bennett,” Hawk Eye (Burlington, Iowa) December 7, 1843. There was an “on-earth” aspect to what JS was trying to achieve. This next one is a very late quote from Benjamin F. Johnson, but strikes me as conveying similar ideas: “The Prophet taught us that Dominion & powr in the great future, would be Comensurate with the no [number] of ‘Wives Childin & Friends’ that we inheret here and that our great mission to earth was to Organize a Neculi [nucleus] of Heaven to take with us.” I do think JS had aspirations of a utopian society. Plato’s REPUBLIC had both shared goods and marriages. It seems to me JS’s goal was to form that utopia and have it be eternal. Hard to pull off, but who knows what God has in store?” Nov 21, 12:52
- on 1860 Utah Had Fewer Skilled and Educated Workers than Almost Any Other State/Territory in the US: “Hmm…I’m no economic historian, but I’d expect mean SEI in 1860 to be highest on the east coast, then gradually decrease as you go west with maybe a bit of a bump right on the west coast. Going north to south, my guess is the more industrialized north would be higher than the more agricultural south, but I’m less confident of that. Significantly higher in the south seems unlikely. I’d also expect neighboring states to be fairly similar–big shifts are more likely the result of differences in measurement than reality. Well, we don’t see that. I’m especially dubious that the region with the lowest mean SEI was the Great Lakes states. On the frontier, I’ll bet there was a lot of undercounting, and it seems plausible that people with higher SEI were more likely to be counted as they were more settled and more likely to be known to the government. (Maybe the reason Utah is so low is that the Church’s networking made the count more complete and thus more accurate.) In the south, I doubt slave occupations were recorded consistently. So I’m kind of dubious about this data anywhere west of the Mississippi or south of the Mason-Dixon line, which is where you get most of the big differences between neighboring states. But Kerry William Bate is right about working with the data we have. “if you think you’re a heretic because of your political opinions at church, try being a sociology PhD who doesn’t care about inequality research” Haha, I’ll bet! Just in case any other prospective social scientists are reading though, it seems to me that the evils of economic inequality are a leitmotif of the whole Restoration project. The Nephites may have fallen due to the inward sin of pride, but the outward manifestation of it was inequality. Then there’s the City of Enoch, the United Order, etc. I hope a generation of Latter-day Saint social scientists who remember President Benson’s call to study the Book of Mormon (which has been repeated by subsequent prophets) but forget his politics (which have not) will bring that perspective to the study of inequality. Not that everyone needs to.” Nov 21, 12:23
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “The question is what will make us happiest, and I don’t know the answer. I hate the idea of forcing people to choose between partners who made them happy. But avoiding it doesn’t lead to polygyny, but to some sort of group marriage. So will that make us the happiest? The empirical evidence from our history suggests probably not. (And if Joseph Smith got the idea from the Old Testament, he knew that going in.) Yes, we’ll be very different people by then. Yes, there will be no constraints on the amount of time and attention we can give to each partner. I’m still dubious. One thing I’m sure of is that no one will have to “settle.” Worlds without number implies people without number. Look at a few pictures of galaxies and ponder how big they are. Then look at something like the Hubble Deep Field images. There’s a partner for everyone out there who will make them very happy, without having to resort to unwanted polygamy. @Jack: Yes, in the celestial kingdom eros will at long last be subordinate to agape. But I for one will be very disappointed if eros disappears completely. (And C.S. Lewis can call me greedy, but I want chocolate in heaven too.)” Nov 21, 11:01
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “LHL, I think we’re all in agreement here that a “loving God” won’t “force his beautiful daughters into such a doctrine,” but this post asked the question about what happens in the next life when perfect monogamy is disrupted: death, divorce, singleness, unhappy marriages etc.” Nov 21, 10:25
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “What ever the afterlife brings, I (in no way) believe that it will include God sanctioned polygamy. I’ve come to believe that polygamy was (and is) an abomination; and an entirely man-made practice. It is already being remembered in infamy and as a great stain on the history of the Church. One of my favorite LDS Hymns is “Oh My Father”, and one of my favorite lines within the song is “the thought makes reason stare”. To even attempt to believe that the loving God of all, would force his beautiful daughters into such a doctrine, truly “the thought makes reason stare”; and I for one – believe it is one horrendous stain on human kind.” Nov 21, 07:36
