- ji on The Church and Polygamy…In Africa: “Yeah, it’s complicated. It isn’t a pure missionary or gospel doctrine question, but African cultures have to be considered. Generally, in some ways African cultures are VERY patriarchal and VERY conservative. Divorced women may suffer real harm. Letting a polygamous man who desires to affiliate with an American church divorce and abandon his excess wives could be very problematic for the church and for those women. I’m not the decision-maker in any sense, of course. My only point is that the decision needs real consideration of African cultures — a normal Salt Lake City mindset, with a missionary goal or church doctrine considerations, will be unable to come to the right solution. There is a real risk of unintended social, political, and other consequences. An absolute ban on previously- or currently-polygamous men might be the right answer, even if it would seem unkind to deny baptism to those men.” Feb 5, 17:27
- on The Church and Polygamy…In Africa: “ji: I suppose that’s an alternative. I think a blanket lifetime ban on baptism might be a case of cutting the nose off to spite the face, unlike the November/current polygamy policy it’s not a wait until you’re X years old to be baptized, but essentially a wait until the hereafter, and categorically denying somebody baptism regardless of their actions and intents seems categorically iffy. Not a Cougar: Thanks for the historical info! I don’t know why I didn’t think about the analogies to our own post-Manifesto situation, but those are some interesting points.” Feb 5, 16:28
- on Cutting Edge Latter-day Saint Research, January 2025: “Personally, I would discourage judging these papers without reading them.” Feb 5, 13:17
- on The Church and Polygamy…In Africa: “Stephen, I’d like to hope that the Church is better equipped to deal with the issue given its past practices, but when you look at how the Church handled the slow death of plural marriage after the First and Second Manifestos, I don’t think that hope would be justified. Church leaders for the most part appeared to have simply abdicated their responsibilities in guiding the membership through the transition with little in the way of policy. Quoting the from Church’s essay, “The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriage,”: “Nevertheless, many practical matters had to be settled. The Manifesto was silent on what existing plural families should do. On their own initiative, some couples separated or divorced as a result of the Manifesto; other husbands stopped cohabiting with all but one of their wives but continued to provide financial and emotional support to all dependents.30 In closed-door meetings with local leaders, the First Presidency condemned men who left their wives by using the Manifesto as an excuse. “I did not, could not and would not promise that you would desert your wives and children,” President Woodruff told the men. “This you cannot do in honor.”31 Believing that the covenants they made with God and their spouses had to be honored above all else, many husbands, including Church leaders, continued to cohabit with their plural wives and fathered children with them well into the 20th century.” 32. President Woodruff may have been furious with men who abandoned the women and children to whom they were sealed, but anger is no replacement for seeking out and declaring the will of the Lord via official policy that is vigorously implemented. Given the difficult optics of something like tacit approval of members in existing polygamous marriages, I suspect the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve will attempt to avoid making a decision on the matter as long as possible unless and until they are forced to act for some reason. 30. Embry, Mormon Polygamous Families, 13–14; Francis M. Lyman journal, Dec. 15, 1893, Church History Library; Utah Stake High Council minutes, Aug. 5, 1892, Church History Library, Salt Lake City. 31. Abraham H. Cannon diary, Oct. 7, 1890, Nov. 12, 1891. 32. Kenneth L. Cannon II, “Beyond the Manifesto: Polygamous Cohabitation among LDS General Authorities after 1890,” Utah Historical Quarterly 46, no. 1 (Winter 1978): 24–36.” Feb 5, 12:33
- on The Church and Polygamy…In Africa: “Yes, I suppose it is complicated. Maybe a previously- or currently-polygamous man should simply be ineligible for baptism, as he has a lifetime duty to his wives. African culture (can I even use that term, as there are many African cultures?) is very different than American culture, and divorce in African cultures is very different than divorce in American culture. To me, it would seem entirely too easy and convenient to let a man join the church after divorcing his excess wives, because in some (almost all?) African cultures the divorce rules and results are lopsidedly pro-man and anti-woman. I would feel differently about baptizing a woman who divorced or was divorced by (note that these are different) a polygamous man, especially if the divorce occurred years ago. Making rules and putting them on paper isn’t always easy.” Feb 5, 05:53
- on Your Reactions to Church Yesterday, 2/1: “In a sense people attend church to obtain feelings. It could be in the form of being with people who reinforce our hope of eternal life. And there is the social angle which has been beaten to the ground by newer church policies that have eliminated or reduced pageants, dinners, plays and any activity involving the entire ward. You can’t however change the desire to be surrounded by like minded people, as well as friendships, we call just call this affinity. I’ve always looked forward to Fast Sundays and the testimonies, I get a feeling of spiritual lift with so many of the spontaneous, off-the-cuff remarks. I leave just feeling good. As humans, most of us enjoy the feelings of belonging to something greater than ourselves, an organization that can do important humanitarian works that we as individuals cannot We can’t ignore the feeling of being worthy, of doing the right thing even when no one is looking of cares is motivating. I look through the ward list and see so many names I’ve never before seen and wonder what did these stone cold inactive members miss out on. They came to find good, positive, reassuring feelings maybe feelings of friendship, but failed to find what they pursued. When I put down the list I feel profound feelings of sadness, feeling helpless to change the inactive members situation. What can the church do to relight the fire, are we becoming too strict, too limited on those activities that used to bring us together, or in a race to rid ourselves of our uniqueness and fall in line with mainline Christianity? A few inactive friends and family members will speak to the church not being the church they grew up in during the 60-80?s, one friend told me church wasn’t fun anymore, dry as a cracker, punctuated by worn out 17th century hymns combined with the constant regurgitation of conference talks. Is the problem with the members or is it the results of so many changes from the top?” Feb 4, 13:23
- on How Many Big Families Are in the US? Where Are They?: “This tracks with my experience as the oldest of, eventually, eight children, maybe subtracting one since “normal” family size was bigger in the 70s and 80s. One possible shift: there were actually two families with eight children in our ward, and it wasn’t a particularly ideological project for either of us. (My parents planned to have two, but the Lord prompted them to have one more. Repeatedly.) I now know two families of comparable size, one LDS and one not, but both were planned that way for explicitly religious reasons. Having a large family seems to have become an intentionally counter-cultural thing. On being married with zero kids…I think our society generally agrees that being in a healthy committed relationship contributes to happiness, and marriage strengthens those relationships. I don’t hear a lot even on the left these days about marriage being obsolete or being an oppressive patriarchal institution. Whether to have kids or not is almost a separate decision from getting married. We’re not quite empty nesters yet, but our 19-year-old doesn’t need us to organize our lives around her anymore, and it’s been striking to me how our marriage has become even more important and fulfilling. But most importantly, congratulations!” Feb 4, 12:31
- on How Many Big Families Are in the US? Where Are They?: “Of particular “going against the grain” note, consider Kyung Yeol Park, his wife Myeongsuk, and their seven children. Elder Park was 48 when called to the 4th Quorum of the Seventy in April 2024. At the time of his call he was a counselor in the presidency of the Seoul Korea South Stake. Called as an Area Seventy last year there was, “Motoshige Karino, 52, Togane, Japan; Representative Director, Modere Japan GK; currently serving as president of the Chiba Japan Stake; former bishop, mission presidency counselor and stake presidency counselor; wife: Mirei; seven children.”” Feb 4, 11:38
- on How Many Big Families Are in the US? Where Are They?: “My mother was one of her parents’ fourteen children, the fifth of ten sisters. I formed from that an exaggerated sense that any couple that was willing could have a dozen children, but it is not really so. To be physically capable of that, even if willing, is very exceptional. For example, of apostles ordained in the 20th Century, Packer and Nelson each had ten children, and to find another with at least that many we have to reach back to Joseph Fielding Smith, who had two children with his first wife and nine with the second following the death of the first. Numerous 20th Century apostles had seven or eight children, though. Infertility is more than a yes/no matter. Many couples were able to have one or three, followed by miscarriages. Some women are blessed with healthy childbearing into their 40s, but not all. Elder Holland remarked on his and his wife’s experience with that. In the March 1987 Ensign, Flora Amussen Benson (wife of Ezra) was quoted, “I wanted twelve children, but had to settle for a choice half dozen. If we just would have had twins every time, we would have made it.”” Feb 4, 11:26
- on How Many Big Families Are in the US? Where Are They?: “Links: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr74/nvsr74-1.pdf https://www.jrganymede.com/?s=birth+order” Feb 4, 11:07
