- Kent Larsen on Seeing Transparently in Church: Participation and Meaning in Church (Or What Did Church Lead You to Think About) Yesterday, 6/21?: “jader3rd, that’s a fascinating story. If you haven’t already, I think it’s worth mentioning it to the Bishop. My initial reaction is, of course, that we need to find sacredness ourselves, by how we see and react to the meeting. But, of course, there are assumptions that are generally made in a culture, and I suspect that the group is judging sacrament meeting based on those assumptions. Its possible to meet those assumptions, of course — its just easier for us individually to change how we see and react and find sacredness that way, because it doesn’t require us to run the meeting or change other’s behavior. Regardless, that’s disappointing. And all too common.” Jun 22, 21:11
- on Seeing Transparently in Church: Participation and Meaning in Church (Or What Did Church Lead You to Think About) Yesterday, 6/21?: “In Elders Quorum the Elders Quorum President made a passionate speech about the sacredness of Sacrament Meeting. He then asked the quorum how they feel sacredness in Sacrament Meeting. After an pause where no one raised their hand a non-member raised his hand and said that he doesn’t feel any sacredness during Sacrament Meeting, but he very much enjoys seeing the ward families grow. It does make me ponder about feeling sacredness.” Jun 22, 19:15
- on Seeing Transparently in Church: Participation and Meaning in Church (Or What Did Church Lead You to Think About) Yesterday, 6/21?: “Here’s a few of my thoughts in reaction to what I experienced in Church recently: We recently had talks from a couple who were moving out of our ward. I realized that these “farewell talks” are a kind of genre — the speaker says similar things in the talk, like how they have been involved in the congregation, how much they will miss the members of the congregation, etc., all while trying to give a gospel message that some will find uplifting. I’m wondering what other elements are generally found in these talks, and what the speaker should do to make it work. I’m thinking its a little tricky. One of the speakers moving away used Elder Uchtdorf’s “Lift Where You Stand” metaphor when talking about moving between wards. I must admit that I had never thought of it being used in that way. But I suppose that where you stand can and does change over time. I guess that also means that your ability to lift changes over time and depending on where you are — in some locations it may be harder for us to lift much, while in other situations we can contribute more. In class, a speaker talked about the paradoxes of suffering. Suffering alone isn’t worthwhile. It’s suffering plus meaning that makes the suffering both durable and worth it. I think this is similar to an opposite of suffering —- winning. Winning alone is hollow. It’s love that gives winning value. Winning without love is losing. ” Jun 21, 10:54
- on More Than Mercy: Robert Alter on the Covenantal Weight of Hesed: “Hesed is very different from charity–that’s kind of the point of the interview. You can have charity for me without my participation or even my consent. But for you to be faithful to a pact with me, we have to have made a pact. That requires something of me as well as you. God loves all his children unconditionally (charity) whether they like it or not. But even God cannot be faithful to a pact (hesed) we are unwilling to make. That said, I very much doubt that the covenants of the restored gospel are the only pacts God is faithful to.” Jun 20, 23:53
- on Filet-O-Fish and Keeping Mormonism Weird: ““I think we should “Keep Mormonism weird,” to crib from Austin’s unofficial slogan.” Have you looked at the unofficial slogan for the Sunstone Symposium??? (Hint: it’s literally “Keep Mormonism Weird.”) I think Armand Mauss’s 1994 book “The Angel and the Beehive” should probably be mentioned in this context as well. Mauss argues that Mormonism, like many sub-cultures, is in a cultural tension between assimilation and distinctiveness, and that its very survival rests on maintaining that tension — i.e., never assimilating completely, but also never becoming so distinctive that it becomes a threat to the main culture. Similar to Mauss’s work in sociology is a field in psychology called “Optimal Distinctiveness Theory”, which also suggests that each of us individually are in this same tension. I think these fields suggest that we need to worry about the overall distinctiveness of Mormonism, instead of what’s going on with individual elements of our culture. While REC911 is correct in thinking that some things are more important to our religion than others, any single item isn’t going to make the difference. AND, there are significant social and psychological forces that are pushing in each direction — we won’t completely assimilate without a large backlash towards distinctiveness. [Posts like this one might be a small part of that backlash.] Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s any way to really measure these shifts between distinctiveness and assimilation. I wish there were — it would be nice to be able to say “we’ve gone too far” (in either direction) and back that up with data. By chance I attended a session at MHA recently that talked about a group of young LDS artists who were pushing hard for distinctiveness in their art. I really liked what they were doing, even though none of their work had the importance that REC911 asks for. But maybe such cultural things ARE actually important, in a social and psychological way instead of a gospel or doctrinal way.” Jun 20, 10:25
- on Finding Meaning in Sacrament Meeting: Participation and Meaning in Church (Or What Did Church Lead You to Think About) Yesterday, 6/14?: “LHL: You made me laugh, so I’ll let your comment stay, even though it clearly violates the prescription in the last 3 paragraphs of the original post. rogerdhansen: I wish you had gone a little further and told us what that means for how you act/react in church. If our thoughts are not totally free, then are we all wasting our time? Should we find some way of pushing back against influences that aren’t helpful/productive/ good?? On a practical level, what does your proposition mean for us? RLD: I love the message behind your “fearless (filterless?)” reference. Indeed fearless often means filterless, and, in my experience, “filterless” can hurt others as much as they entertain and attract them. Seth, thank you. Your comment on ChatGPT is wise. I’m one of those who is very skeptical of the utility of these LLMs, but I do think we should recognize that using LLMs is a crutch that some people feel like they need. Like everything, how we use a tool is more important than the mere use of the tool by itself. And your comment on ways to ponder is exactly what I’m getting at. We should be thinking about more than ourselves when we go to church. We can think about why the speaker is saying what they are saying. We might learn something in the process, or at least gain some empathy for another.” Jun 20, 09:57
- on More Than Mercy: Robert Alter on the Covenantal Weight of Hesed: “So, let’s just go with charity?” Jun 19, 17:29
- on More Than Mercy: Robert Alter on the Covenantal Weight of Hesed: “Choosing the most negative possible way to understand a statement is just going to make you needlessly unhappy, Daniel H. If you read the post, it sounds like Russell Nelson was just attempting to incorporate scholarship on Biblical Hebrew similar to Alter’s into his remarks, which is the kind of thing people On Here regularly wish the apostles would do.” Jun 19, 16:03
- on More Than Mercy: Robert Alter on the Covenantal Weight of Hesed: “Daniel H, God has an infinite love for all of his children. But in order for them to receive the “transferable” aspect of his love — that which “sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of men” — they have to move towards him. That’s what the Lord truly desires for all of his children.” Jun 19, 15:19
- on Filet-O-Fish and Keeping Mormonism Weird: “@sure Anecdotal, but as a kid I hated primary. It made me hate the church and the gospel. I’m in the primary now and I see lots of children who feel the same way. Some primaries are good and some bad but sitting a child down and telling them what they are supposed to believe does not work for these kids. Becoming converted to the church required me to first disassociate it from my primary experience.” Jun 19, 11:45
