- jimbob on That time when President Oaks told you voting Democrat was okay: “As a middle-right conservative without a party, Curtis Pew’s response scares me a whole lot more than the thors of the world. My admitted guess is that thor knows better but has always chosen party and will do so until he dies. But Curtis Pew is like so many people I love and respect who somehow still support the most transparently amoral person we’ve ever elected. I’ve heard so many times over the last 11 years that “Sure, Trump has his faults, but those democrats are just too mean to him and now everyone has Trump Derangement Syndrome.” The problem is that Trump’s faults include literally fomenting a rebellion on Capitol Hill; refusing to peacefully pass power and thus knowingly allowing cops to be bludgeoned by his supporters; actively using government to tamp down political speech he doesn’t like; taking what can only be considered bribes from foreign governments in the form of airplanes; sewing seeds of doubt in the American election process, based on knowing falsehoods; admitting to protecting credibly-accused child abusers; and personally enriching his net worth by $3 billion *in the last two years alone* as he’s mingled his office with his business interests. And those are just the things I can think of off the top of my head. And the thing that drives me most nuts is that Republicans in DC are mostly looking the other way, abdicating their role as a check on the presidency. They saw what happened to conservatives that spoke up in Trump’s previous term and now they’re pretending that the biggest fleecing of America isn’t really happening. My current governor ran a campaign ad about transgender swimmers this week, an issue which affects all of about a two dozen people/programs in America. Meanwhile, he’s got nothing to say about Trump or his policies or his forever wars or his cozying up to foreign dictators. And most people in my state wouldn’t want to hear it anyway, because then my governor too would have the dreaded “Trump Derangement Syndrome.” This is the easiest civics test we’ve ever taken, and more than half of us are failing. It’s also the easiest “lesser of two evils” analysis that has ever existed in American politics. And more than half of us are failing that too. I have no doubt that the Curtis Pews of the world are sincere; I count them as close friends and family. But it has broken my heart to see otherwise good people defend Trump.” Oct 16, 10:46
- on Mormons, Handbells, and the Issue of Respectability: “Very interesting commentary. Changing perceptions is notoriously difficult. It is even more difficult to clear negative perceptions. One must simultaneously weaken uniqueness to avoid outright rejection while embracing uniqueness to remain authentically the same. To escape the pigeon hole, the perceived topic category needs to be expanded, the most negative and incorrect perceptions must be exorcised, and it needs to be seen as uniquely useful. If you want popularity, you need broad usefulness.” Oct 16, 10:28
- on That time when President Oaks told you voting Democrat was okay: “I want to be very careful in answering because I do take seriously prophetic counsel about trying to be a peacemaker. I will try to be charitable in interpreting what you have said, but ask that you extend the same consideration to me. All your arguments about a moral imperative to oppose Trump assume that he is some kind of unusually wicked leader, a “threat to democracy”. I honestly don’t see it that way. I did not vote for him in 2016 because of his obvious flaws, but once he was elected it seemed to me that his opponents were actually much worse, an opinion I still hold. I’m not going to try to convince you of that, but ask that you accept that we can disagree without condemning each other. I don’t actually think I’ll have to account for a list of sins at the judgement. I was invoking a literary trope to say that voting choices are not often the most significant moral choices we make—and, again, that we can disagree about politics without judging other people’s morality. About compassion: I take very seriously the teachings of Christ and His prophets on the need to care for others. However, I also think that political or government action is often the worst way to express that care. When politicians talk about compassion, their programs usually end up increasing the power and prestige of government actors while only providing dubious benefits for the people they claim to be helping. Paying a generous fast offering and serving in our wards and communities are better ways to follow the Savior. As I said at the start, I’ve tried to express myself in ways that won’t offend others. If I’ve said anything you consider offensive, please forgive me.” Oct 16, 08:14
- on That time when President Oaks told you voting Democrat was okay: “When I stand before the judgement seat, I don’t expect my voting record will be near the top of the list of sins I’m held accountable for. Curtis, I wonder about that. For some elections, more than others, ones voting preference is this microcosm of what ones priorities are and what one is at their core. Given the lack of sunday school lessons about your voting record being brought up on Judgement Day, I suspect you are correct, but sometimes I can’t help but wonder. Take this weeks Come Follow Me reading in Isaiah for example. Isaiah goes over how the people’s Fast’s aren’t doing anything, because they aren’t lifting yokes of oppression. Yes, they weren’t adding to their lists of sins by Fasting, but they weren’t developing empathy as part of their Fasts, which is what God really wants them to do. Gain some empathy and then turn that empathy into action. So just like how you’re thinking about your “lists of sins” (I’m not saying that I don’t too), the people that Isaiah is railing on, are also thinking about keeping their lists of sins short by following the commandment for holding a regular Fast. So it could be that your efforts in breaking or lifting the yokes of oppression are going to matter more on Judgement Day than a list of sins (or list of meals Fasted). And how can you lift yokes of oppression? In a democracy, that would be by voting. Are you voting for those who are trying to lift yokes of systemic oppression, or are you voting for those who say that there is no systemic oppression (because they have advantage and view equality as oppression)? Yes, there is a lot in the gospel about personal keeping of commandments, but once in a while there are these sneaky messages about relationships with the less fortunate and building a Zion community; things which generally have nothing to do with a list of personal sins. It leaves me wondering.” Oct 15, 22:40
- on That time when President Oaks told you voting Democrat was okay: “Curtis Pew, voting is a choice like any other, and it doesn’t come with a special dispensation that lets us escape the consequences for our choices. Under normal circumstances, the difference is probably inconsequential. But we are far from normal circumstances. People keep proudly confessing, right here in the comments on this blog, that they voted for Trump because they hate liberals like me and will enjoy watching me suffer, or because they wanted to watch the system burn, or similarly depraved reasons, and I do not think that they will escape divine judgment for their votes unless they repent. People warned us for years that, based on past behavior, Trump would harm the civic fabric and moral character of this country, and after the critics have been proven correct, continuing to elect people who support Trump is either sinful folly or sinful malice. RLD, I approve of the bibliography, and I usually approve of your calm voice of reason. But we had a chance to return to normal, and we blew it. Now we have to recognize that these are not normal times, and we are a long ways from returning to normal. After Trump attempted to overthrow a democratic election through lies and violence, continuing to vote for his supporters falls closer to supporting the king-men against a free government than it does to choosing between Obama and Romney.” Oct 15, 22:33
- on Thoughts on Our Polygamy Problems: “One minor point of clarification on JS’s “Utopianism”: Marion G Romney (Qrm 12) in Apr ‘66 Genl Conf talk clarified that private property rights, not communal property ownership common in contemporary utopias, was at the heart of the united order. Elder Romney gave this talk at the behest of the First Presidency- once in Genl Conf and once at BYU…nothing to do with the polygamy or priesthood denial histories and associated doctrinal “explanation challenges”… just a peculiar clarification” Oct 15, 17:47
- on That time when President Oaks told you voting Democrat was okay: “Are we limiting ourselves to when he was President of the Church? Because he addressed this pretty clearly in October 2021: “There are many political issues, and no party, platform, or individual candidate can satisfy all personal preferences. Each citizen must therefore decide which issues are most important to him or her at any particular time. Then members should seek inspiration on how to exercise their influence according to their individual priorities. This process will not be easy. It may require changing party support or candidate choices, even from election to election. Such independent actions will sometimes require voters to support candidates or political parties or platforms whose other positions they cannot approve. That is one reason we encourage our members to refrain from judging one another in political matters. We should never assert that a faithful Latter-day Saint cannot belong to a particular party or vote for a particular candidate. We teach correct principles and leave our members to choose how to prioritize and apply those principles on the issues presented from time to time.” Yes, I think the example of voting for a Democrat even though you don’t approve of their position on abortion if they’re better on the issue that’s most important to you at the moment–say, sustaining and defending our divinely inspired Constitution–is exactly the kind of thing he had in mind. But he also makes it clear we should not be loyal to any political party, only to the issues we care about. What I consider essential reading for President Oaks’ approach to politics: Love Your Enemies–October 2020 conference Sustaining and Defending the Our Divinely Inspired Constitution–April 2021 conference Going Forward with Religious Freedom and Nondiscrimination–Speech at University of Virginia in November 2021 Faith, Freedom and the Common Good–Speech at the National Cathedral last month Jack, I suspect President Oaks feels exactly the same way you do.” Oct 15, 15:27
- on That time when President Oaks told you voting Democrat was okay: “Let’s make a deal. I won’t twist the words of Pres. Oaks or any other apostle or prophet to say you have to vote for Republicans if you will try to refrain from twisting them to say I have to vote for Democrats. When I stand before the judgement seat, I don’t expect my voting record will be near the top of the list of sins I’m held accountable for. I rather suspect it won’t be brought up at all. At one time I thought it was expected that we could all vote for whoever we thought would be best for the country without having our righteousness called into question, but that day seems to have passed. I’d rather return to a time when we could disagree on politics while still fellowshipping with each other.” Oct 15, 14:18
- on That time when President Oaks told you voting Democrat was okay: “Since the prophet is talking about voting and politics, I think we should pay attention. Thor, I’m glad you’ve seen the light. We have been counseled against party-line voting, though. I’m sure there’s an independent or two in there somewhere you can vote for. Jack, the thing about voting is, we all have to live with the consequences of your decisions (and everyone else’s too). Be sure to read President Oaks’ talks – he has quite a bit to say about maintaining our commitments and values even while working towards compromise with people who don’t. I don’t love every Democratic candidate out there, and there are even one or two I find alarming. It’s possible that someday I’ll have to vote for a competent normie Republican – an endangered species at the moment, unfortunately – over a Democrat who’s truly gone over the edge. But that’s not the case this year, not in any of the elections I can vote in.” Oct 15, 14:04
- on That time when President Oaks told you voting Democrat was okay: “As a RINO I sometimes feel like a man without a country. Jonathan, I don’t think what President Oaks said means that we should be willing to vote for that which we cannot stomach. But I do think it means that we should be tolerant and willing to compromise in ways that we can stomach–though it may be a bit distasteful–in order to move things forward. As I’ve gotten older I’ve tried to vote in ways that reflect the goals and purposes of the Kingdom–as I understand them. Maybe I made a mistake in not voting for either major candidate last time–but I made the best decision I could based upon my own lights and, I hope, a little inspiration. Afterall, I’m the one who has to live with me. As an aside, another great thing about President Oaks’ talk was that we can rest assured that not everything the church does these days is to make nice with white nationalists.” Oct 15, 13:17
