- REC911 on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “Most people who experience an NDE will see spouses and loved ones who have died and recognize them as such. So if we are dead and know the person next to us is our spouse then there is some kind of relationship between spouses, at least in the spirit world, no ordinance/membership needed. What happens after the resurrection could be the same but with bodies. My guess is those who want and are worthy for CK status will need to also want to create. A creator only kingdom. I dont mean just kiddos but a real live game of sim universe. Eternal progression. So, everyone who wants to be around their earthly spouse/spouses/family will do so for eternity but they are not playing sim universe together. Their eternal progression is damned.” Nov 24, 06:38
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “On the one hand, I’ve wondered if there might be some profound meaning to verse 41 that I don’t understand. But on the other hand, I can see how it might be referring to those situations where women who were legally married–but separated–were not in a position to terminate their marriage. And so the “anointing” which is eternal marriage — under the hand of one with the sealing powers — would trump the former temporal marriage in those instances. That said, I think we will all be sealed together into the family of Christ–and that in some sense we will be well acquainted with each other. And within that overall framework there will be “nodes” of marriage (for lack of a better way of putting it) where new life emerges. But in saying that I’m not suggesting that there is a different kind of love in eternal marriage (as compared to our other connections) so much as there is an added function to the relationship–albeit, very sacred. It’s kinda like a tree–with the Savior as the trunk and us as the branches. While there is only one lifegiving substance that flows through the entire organism (the love of God) there is a distinct difference between the branches and the canopy–the latter being where the elements of new life emerge.” Nov 23, 15:17
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “Dave K, I very much agree that the point of attaining the highest heaven is the attributes we acquire more than “the stuff we get.” Head S, to repeat, I do think that belief in eternal marriage does bring up questions about the potential of multiple partners because of death and other circumstances: again the Sadducees’ question to Christ. There’s a long cultural question about taking second spouses if the first one dies and even stories from the middle ages of husbands forbidding it and coming back as ghosts to punish their “unfaithful” wives for doing so. I really do believe that the Celestial characteristics we should be striving to acquire are about putting off selfishness and not being possessive in our love. If a husband/wife were to die and the spouse were to remarry, isn’t the “Celestial” attitude hoping your spouse will find a kind and loving person? And if the new spouse was kind and loving, wouldn’t you expect your spouse to really love and appreciate his/her new spouse? And if she/he did, then you would expect him/her to want to continue to be with the new spouse in the next life, right? And if we worked hard to be a good spouse to our previous spouse, then he/she would probably want our company in the next life too. I’ve only seen the trailer of Eternity, but I really do think there would be instances of people who had multiple spouses in this life and happy to see both/all of them. And if the spouse is happy to see both you and the other spouse and wants to spend eternity with both of you, is that really out of the question? I don’t know how Eternity ends, but in that hypothetical situation, if the various people really did work to acquire Celestial traits, is it really out of the question that they could all get along? If both men were good husbands (again, haven’t see the move) couldn’t they appreciate each other? And yes, I know the spouses in that situation may feel like they are being forced into a situation that they don’t see as the ideal. And yes, I come back to how I interpret DC 132:41, which to me suggests that there was a time when married spouses had the opportunity to “be sealed by the holy anointing” to additional spouses, both men and women. Yes, that is a mess in this life and I argue that leading Mormon men convinced JS (especially Hyrum) to switch the practice to polygyny instead of what I call “shared marriage” in 1843 with DC 132 (verse 41 is a reference to the old system, I argue). But in the next life, especially for those who attain the qualities of the Celestial Kingdom, can’t we attain the qualities where we CAN get along and be happy? That is, couldn’t the two husbands in Eternity appreciate each other and understand their wife wants to be with both of them (if they are all good people)? And yes, I would assume that the wife wouldn’t be possessive and would therefore be understanding of her husbands also loving other holy people too. I do see DC 132 as a “lower law” like tithing instead of consecration. The early Mormon leaders felt they were too possessive to be able to practice shared marriage. They were probably right, but I don’t think the Celestial Kingdom will have such possessiveness over love. Perhaps we can come to “think Celestial.” :)” Nov 23, 08:26
- on 1860 Utah Had Fewer Skilled and Educated Workers than Almost Any Other State/Territory in the US: “Of course, yes, inequality is important, but so are a lot of other things. My little niche, in-group dig was about the fact that sociologists hardly study anything else in the vast realm of what could be covered by sociology.” Nov 23, 08:00
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “Have friend at church whose father died in early 60’s after 40 years of marriage. Her mother remarried also widowed husband of close friend. Twenty years into second marriage, friend spent 5 minutes talking about how wonderful it was that step-father “took care” of mother. I then asked if she was going to seal them together after they both died, and immediately her attitude did a 180 degree turn. She became offended, said she would never do that, etc. So much for the good feelings of children when their widowed parents remarry. It illustrates the sense of betrayal underlying remarriage. We hear all sorts of anecdotal stories of how adult children encouraged widowed parents to remarry, but in light of our sealing doctrine and the ambiguity that exists, I think children aren’t finding the “comfort” the handbook says they should seek. Add in the “desires and choices allowed” language, and we don’t know whether men will be plural, but women will have to choose; or no will choose; or what. I wish some sisters would chime in on this discussion. Over the years, plenty of male voices have said “I can’t imagine the next life without both of my wives.” I don’t know that I’ve ever heard a female say “I can’t imagine the next life without both of my husbands.” Maybe women will have no problem singling out one of several husbands as being “the one.” I don’t know. Examples of male leaders (Perry, Oaks, Nelson) indicate men should remarry women who aren’t sealed to another man. Yet, there are plenty of rank and file widowers who marry previously sealed women. I say seal all living people to all their spouses, knowing that people are “moving on” in the next life, too, and let folks choose one spouse for the eternities at the end of the day.” Nov 23, 06:44
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “My interest in how marriages will play out began almost 40 years ago after the birth of our second child. Somehow the topic of remarriage came up and my wife, without skipping a beat, said “Of course I would remarry. I would want someone to support me and our 2 kids and help raise them.” My witty comeback was to the effect “I’m sure that’s just what you would be thinking on your honeymoon — Hey second husband — you can sleep on the couch because I just married you for the convenience of money and help changing diapers.” When pressed further about how things might shake out, she said being married to husband two would help prepare her to spend eternity with me. Sorry, I doubt she would want to spend eternity with me after spending 20, 30, 40, maybe 50 years married to second husband. In the end, she shrugged her shoulders: I would have to take care of me and mine, and you would have to fend for youself in the spirit world. Ever since then I have asked folks to complete the following sentence, presuming you have been sealed to first spouse: “One can keep his or her covenants and remarry upon the death of a spouse because……..” The obvious temporal answer is “he or she is dead.” However, that does not remotely address the underlying committments made in the sealing ceremony. Plus, leaders have consistently said all marriages (between men/women) are meant to be eternal. If that’s the case, then it sounds like we will be plural. All I know is that at some point, most married couples will find themselves single again. The odds of living to a ripe old age and both spouses dieing at the same time are very slim. Some folks bury their heads in the sand and don’t want to think about it, but like any other life planning, they should. I am disappointed we don’t have any modern day revelation about all of this. I spend 10 minutes talking to a nonmember about sealings, the spirit world, how deceased loved ones are waiting for a joyful reunion, etc. Then it all falls apart when he confronts me with our ability to remarry after the death of our spouses.” Nov 22, 06:36
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “My two cents. We will have as much agency in the next life as here, even more. The sealings we perform for ourselves and our ancestors are invitations and opportunities; they never bind or force against one’s will. If I’m with my wife in the eternities, it’s because we continue to choose so each day, not because we’re trapped by a ceremony from our earthly life. The elephant in the room is whether spirit children are created through a similar pregnancy process in the eternities as mortality. I’ve come to reject that notion. I believe Joseph’s teaching that spirits are eternal and are found/adopted by the gods. Pregnancy is only a mortal experience. If I obtain godhood, I’ll be one of many parents for adopted spirits we find together, just as I have not two but many gods as my heavenly parents now – hence the title Elohim, literally “the gods”. I’ve also come to stop caring what eternal bodies look like or what genitalia that may have. Maybe I’ll appear as I do now – a middle age balding white dude. Maybe I’ll choose to be a falcon or a pink river dolphin. I don’t know or really care. What I do care about are the godly attributes (think beatitudes or section 121). Those are the markers of godhood – what we’ll recognize when we meet the savior.” Nov 22, 06:35
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “I’m actually less curious about how eternal marriages will work, and more curious about what do those aren’t living a Celestial law doing. There are lots of non-members who get married and stay married their entire lives, and seem to want to continue that in the next life. Will they somehow lose interest in a super long term relationship that if they aren’t worthy of a celestial marriage? What is different about Celestial people in wanting or being able to maintain a marriage relationship vs the non-Celestial people? It seems odd that God would prevent marital relations between two willing immortal individuals who are agents unto themselves. So my best explanation is that something changes with our desires when resurrected. It’s not that I want to focus on non-Celestial Kingdom individuals, but I think understanding the difference will help understand how Celestial marriages will function.” Nov 21, 23:36
- on How Do YOU Think Eternal Marriage/Family Should Work in the Next Life?: “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. … And worlds without number have I created; … The first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many…. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they … Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins…which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them … This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself. … And the Father and I are one. I am in the Father and the Father in me; and inasmuch as ye have received me, ye are in me and I in you. … That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us … And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him. So if you’ll excuse the various selections of scripture, I don’t think a lot of conjecture is needed to concluded that God’s work stretches far into the past and far into the future. The creation of worlds and populating of them and propagating of humanity across the universe (whatever and wherever that may be) is essentially the work God and all who have become one with him across of eternity. God intends for his children to become like him. What was done here in this world will be done in others. I do not believe God was lying or being hyperbolic when he said what his work is and how he intends to give us the same power he has and how Abraham will carry on like God to have eternal increase in the eternities and that same promise extends to us. I’m not sure how much more clear I can be other than saying everything that God is doing was done before and will be done again in the future and if we are faithful we will be doing it, united perfectly as one with God through the atonement. Worlds without number. We have the only theology that actually looks to the eternal number of starts across the sky and can wonder, “is there even enough room for what God has planned?” I’m not worried about petty religious disputes with trinitarians who have their nose in the mud of this earth and try to drag our glorious theology down by insisting we can not share in our Father’s glory when the precise mission of his son was to enable exactly that.” Nov 21, 19:07
- on A Review: Pearl of Great Price: A Study Edition for Latter-day Saints: “Thanks for the review and the link. Taking a look now.” Nov 21, 18:04
