- SDS on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “Interesting post, interesting question, interesting comments. As someone who served in a mission in which the “finding days” were Monday through Thursday for baptisms on Sunday, and hardly anyone baptized had previously attended church at all (and a not insignificant number never did attend a Sacrament Meeting, before or after baptism), I think requiring attendance at 9 meetings sounds like a wonderful idea. Maybe even an inspired one. :)” Feb 26, 14:56
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “I think perhaps one takes the name of the Lord in vain when we claim revelation (and thus, God’s imprimatur) for his or her own decision. And even if revelation does occur, we cannot cite that revelation (or our higher rank in the church’s hierarchal structure) to impose that decision on others — our God asks us to use patience, brotherly kindness, persuasion, love unfeigned, and so forth.” Feb 26, 13:54
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “I believe the point the guy was making to me about revelation fatigue was, will calling all policy tinkering revelation invite skepticism? I think so, especially since I hold to a caretaker model of leadership. This doesn’t mean that plenty of decisions aren’t good ones, like giving Jonathan a shorter trip to the temple. But I think lots of President Nelson’s policy changes were less so (lots to say about that and I have). As I said in a lot of my posts on the leaders, I understand that experimenting with policy changes to try to improve things is a good and necessary thing for good organizations to do. I do wonder if calling every (or many) changes revelation can be problematic, however, like my 1c noted.” Feb 26, 13:14
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “Stephen F, Your comment about “revelation fatigue” made me think about the early Saints: Did they ever feel that way? Clearly some did, some didn’t. The difference is whether a person perceives the “revelations” (programs, new slogans, whatever) as moving the needle. If they don’t move the needle, yes, it’ll cause fatigue!” Feb 26, 11:26
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “I dont know if I have ever heard the prophet speak in my entire life long membership in the church. I hear the president speak all the time then leaders/members turn those words into “the prophet” spoke. I think the most misunderstood and misused scripture is “by mine own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same.” No way, IMO, that it means when a church leader speaks its prophecy. It has to mean when a church leader speaks for God/Jesus it is the same. I am waiting for the leaders to tell me when they are actually speaking for God/Jesus. Until then, I will keep listening to God. Hey I think someone should probably attend church before being baptized too but 9 times? That is an odd # to me. If the church was truly concerned about retention BEFORE baptism, the program would have to look a lot different. There are concerned after and I would love for the church to share how we are actually doing over time, better or worse. Anyone in the know here?” Feb 26, 11:04
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “I agree with the principle of Stephen’s post, as he’s addressing the general principle. Although it cuts the other way too: A slowdown in church growth is predominantly about macro-scale demographic trends and secularization, and not your particular policy preferences or historical questions. And there’s a difference between new program fatigue and cheap cynicism. It seems reasonable that the minimum number of times someone must attend church before baptism should be greater than zero, and for that number to be set by the local mission rather than church headquarters. Don’t confuse a policy choice with a new program for the sake of innovation. Our temple is one of the newer, smaller temples that’s only open a few days a week. And it’s awesome, because we only have to drive 2.5 hours each way instead of 4 hours, and I will not dismiss it as a vanity project. People complain that we never get any new revelation, but when the prophets speak, they hate it and spend decades trying to make them take it back.” Feb 26, 09:52
- on Will the Community of Christ Die Off?: “The CoC Temple is now only open on Thursdays from 9am-4pm. They used to be open 6-7 days a week. The grounds have deteriorated considerably- the parking lot is a mess and the landscape has been severely neglected. It’s tragic. Independence itself is in shocking midwest rust-belt decay. Most of the surrounding CoC buildings are rarely staffed/open for the public and are in disrepair. Each time I’ve visited, I have observed unhoused persons and persons experiencing substance addition in the downtown. Unpopular opinion: Maybe we (LDS) shouldn’t be building hundreds of such high-maintenance temples across the world- each susceptible to a myriad of unforeseen and uncontrollable circumstances, including our own economic solvency in generations to come. Maybe a better way would be to create Shinto or Buddhist like Gardens as our temples. They would be 100% integrated in nature and relevant when curated and visited, but ultimately- just nature. These gardens would be appreciated and tended in the moment as an act of devotion and sacredness. We could spend the left-over money on the poor and the sick. Side note, we’re building a new temple in Maui, where such an outdoor temple would be absolutely perfect. But our new temple will be a cold-climate granite implant on a tropical clime and an environmental catastrophe. But we must cling to our French rococo velveted tufts, air conditioning, nursing home conveniences, and giant parking lots dotted with suburban shrubbery a la the malls and shopping centers. It’s a major burden to maintain. And, I would rather keep the integrity of my family, my descendants, my people, than rely on and encourage the lifestyles and ethics of the mega-rich. That wealth does not materialize out of thin air. I’m aware that the church frequently says that money, success and power aren’t necessarily evil and can be righteously obtained and used. But, the ultra rich (which we idolize) are part of a disturbing global economic system that is directly connected to real human consequences. So, one of the wealthiest and most famous Saints from the ‘Mormon Moment’ famously enriched himself using his private equity firm. He walked away with massive profits while workers, families and communities absorbed the damage. Another famous political Saint has been so pressured into obtaining political power and legacy, that he traded constitutional originalism for political opportunism. He enables horrid leaders in to climb the ladder. Together they execute extremely concerning and repetitive constitutional breeches. And, let’s not even get started with the lifestyles of the LDS Desperate Housewives of SL and the McMansion ilk throughout the valley and across the world. It’s not worth asking our fellow saints and family members to aspire to succeed in those environments, to idolize and praise those who do (and in doing so, lose integrity.) Swimming in those waters is revolting and dangerous. Maintenance comes at a high cost. I find no shame in Emma’s people and their humble financial losses and dwindling numbers. There are worse ways to die.” Feb 26, 09:32
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “This reminds me of a short conversation I had while bishop with a man who’d been my first counselor, but because he’d served in so many bishoprics (I didn’t know that because I’d only been in the ward 5 months when they called me as bishop) the SP made me promise I’d release him after 1.5 years. I released him after 9 months so I felt ahead of schedule. This conversation was probably just a little before the pandemic so at a time when there were lots of big changes at the beginning of President Nelson’s presidency. These were presented as continuing revelation and accompanied by the phrase “the Restoration is ongoing.” Anyway, in the hall, the former 1c pulled me aside and said a little under his breath as though this was a point he’d been musing on. “Do you think that if the leaders claim revelation for so many thing, then the members might …” I then filled in what I thought he was getting at, “We’ll get ‘revelation fatigue’?” “Yeah,” he said. He dropped out during the pandemic. Maybe I called him into one too many bishoprics. :(” Feb 26, 09:01
- on New Program Fatigue in the Church: “In a previous ward, the bishipbric was sincerely trying to implement and follow through with new programs and initiatives, but it felt like they were becoming consumed by that preoccupation at the expense of basic spiritual needs. They told speakers to focus on whatever the latest and greatest program was each week, and sacrament meetings in the ward started feeling like a never-ending series of sales pitches and testimonials for programs. I stopped feeling like I was getting anything out of the meetings, since they were worshipping the programs of the Church instead of anything deeper.” Feb 26, 08:49
- on What Did Church Lead You to Think About Yesterday, 2/22?: “Kent: The good I got out of it was a reminder that I love the ministering program as I can tell my ministers that I will call them if I ever need them. I love that one family does not want me to do anything and the other I take to lunch! I love that ministering is to the world and not just my assigned members in my ward. (my thing, not the church’s) Thanks for asking and pointing out that I am guilty of complaining which is clearly not the intention of this post. (I am being serious) I will repent. Having said that….Can someone start a post about Ministering vs HT here so I can really complain?? :) I will start with ministering interviews….” Feb 26, 08:01
