{"id":41945,"date":"2021-07-11T18:23:02","date_gmt":"2021-07-11T23:23:02","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.timesandseasons.org\/?p=41945"},"modified":"2021-07-11T18:23:02","modified_gmt":"2021-07-11T23:23:02","slug":"bodies-terestrial-and-not-bodies-celestial","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/2021\/07\/bodies-terestrial-and-not-bodies-celestial\/","title":{"rendered":"\u201cBodies\u00a0Terestrial\u00a0and not\u00a0bodies\u00a0Celestial\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"

As I was working on my previous post<\/a>, I had a thought I wanted to explore, but not enough space there: If we believe in eternal progression but also want to argue that there are limits to upward mobility in the eternities, we run into the question\u2014why? \u00a0Why wouldn\u2019t it be possible to continue repenting and progressing after resurrection and judgement?\u00a0 While there\u2019s a lot of potential answers (God said so, lower motivation to work on things in this life, etc.), one of the more interesting answers from Church leaders caught my attention as something to ponder.\u00a0 That answer was that the bodies we are resurrected with determine the level of glory in which we can dwell.<\/p>\n

During his efforts to state that God doesn\u2019t believe in opportunities for second chances in the afterlife, Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught that:<\/p>\n

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies\u2014some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.[1]<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Thus, according to him, the type of body you receive at resurrection determines which kingdom you\u2019re locked into forever.<\/p>\n

In teaching this doctrine, McConkie draws on the language of Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.\u00a0 In that epistle, Paul discusses the resurrection and states that:<\/p>\n

All flesh\u00a0is<\/em>\u00a0not the same flesh: but\u00a0there is<\/em>\u00a0one\u00a0kind of<\/em>\u00a0flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes,\u00a0and<\/em>\u00a0another of birds.\u00a0 There<\/em>\u00a0are<\/em>\u00a0also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the\u00a0celestial<\/span>\u00a0is<\/em>\u00a0one, and the\u00a0glory<\/em>\u00a0of the\u00a0terrestrial<\/span>\u00a0is<\/em>\u00a0another.\u00a0 There is<\/em>\u00a0one glory of the\u00a0sun<\/span>, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the\u00a0stars<\/span>: for\u00a0one<\/em>\u00a0star\u00a0differeth<\/span>\u00a0from\u00a0another<\/em>\u00a0star in\u00a0glory<\/span>.\u00a0 So also\u00a0is<\/em>\u00a0the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in\u00a0corruption<\/span>; it is raised in incorruption.[2]<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

At a glance, it could be interpreted as Paul referring to different body types in connection to the different Kingdoms of Glory.<\/p>\n

Indeed, the Vision (D&C 76), which is the primary text discussing those degrees of glory, refers to Paul\u2019s text. \u00a0In describing those who are judged worthy to enter the Celestial Kingdom: \u201cThese are they whose bodies are\u00a0celestial\u00a0whose glory is that of the sun.\u201d[3]<\/a>\u00a0 Likewise, those in the Terrestrial Kingdom \u201care bodies\u00a0Terestrial\u00a0and not\u00a0bodies\u00a0Celestial\u00a0and differeth in glory as the\u00a0moon differeth from the sun.\u201d[4]<\/a>\u00a0 When approaching Paul\u2019s text during the New Testament translation project, Joseph Smith also added references to \u201cbodies Telestial\u201d to align with the Vision, implying that Paul was referring to similar knowledge to that presented in the 1832 revelation.[5]<\/a>\u00a0 Based on how Paul\u2019s words are handled in the Vision (with the respective kingdom being used as a descriptive term for bodies), I can see how Elder McConkie came to the conclusion he did about resurrected bodies being tied to specific degrees of glory\u2014that you receive bodies that are specifically Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial in their glory.<\/p>\n

Ultimately, however, we need to assess whether this is an accurate interpretation of Paul\u2019s words.\u00a0 In the relevant section of his epistle, Paul is addressing concerns about whether the resurrection is a reality or not because \u201csome of you say there is no resurrection of the dead.\u201d[6]<\/a>\u00a0 The concern arose because in Greco-Roman society, it was a popular belief that the spirit and body separated at death so that the spirit can escape to a superior existence outside of the physical world.\u00a0 As such, the idea of the body being resurrected was viewed as laughable.\u00a0 Since he was responding to Greek philosophical ideas, Paul chose to model his response on well-known philosophical proofs, particularly those of Plato and Cicero.\u00a0 After listing a series of witnesses who provide evidential support for the Christ\u2019s resurrection and several theological \u201cif \u2026 then\u201d statements to emphasize the resurrection as being foundational to the Christian faith, Paul uses a series of analogies to make the point that there can be body types other than our mortal bodies (i.e., resurrected bodies).<\/p>\n

In this group of analogies, he is responding to the questions: \u201cHow are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?\u201d[7]<\/a>\u00a0 First, he uses the analogy of planting a seed\u2014\u201cyou do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare seed.\u201d[8]<\/a>\u00a0 In other words, the mortal body that is buried in the ground will differ from your resurrected body, just as the seed of wheat you bury in the ground differs in substantial ways from the monocot plant that germinates from that seed.\u00a0 Second, he uses the analogy of different types of animals to say that \u201cnot all flesh is alike.\u201d[9]<\/a>\u00a0 Third, he contrasts earthly (terrestrial) bodies (probably referring to the bodies of living things on earth or something like bodies of water or bodies of land) with heavenly (celestial) bodies (referring to things observed in the sky like the sun, planets, moons, and stars), stating that they are different: \u201cthe glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another,\u201d and then goes into more detail about the heavenly bodies, stating that they also all differ in glory.[10]<\/a>\u00a0 He then states the point he is driving towards in all of these analogies\u2014\u201cSo it is with the resurrection of the dead.\u00a0 What is sown perishable, what is raised imperishable.\u201d[11]<\/a>\u00a0 His responses to the initial questions are that the dead aren\u2019t coming back the exact same way that they were buried when they are resurrected (no zombies here), but that the kind of body they have will be substantially different in their qualities from the mortal bodies we have now.<\/p>\n

Thus, to me, it seems that Paul is making a much more limited point than we tend to think as Latter-day Saints when he talks about the sun, moon, and stars differing in glory.\u00a0 Rather than laying out specific categories for types of resurrected bodies, he is just making the broader point that there are different types of bodies in creation, like how resurrected bodies and mortal bodies are different.\u00a0 His focus, after all, is simply to shore up belief in the resurrection among saints in Corinth.\u00a0 We don\u2019t use his second analogy to state that our resurrected bodies will be assigned to different kingdoms of flesh\u2014that of human beings, animals, birds, and fish\u2014so should we use the third analogy in that way?<\/p>\n

That being said, while I have argued that it probably doesn’t reflect the author’s original intent, I recognize that Paul\u2019s words can be interpreted to indicate that there are different levels of glory for each individual resurrected body, especially when interpreted through the lens of Section 76 and Joseph Smith\u2019s New Translation.\u00a0 If we accept that as valid, however, the next question we run into is whether or not the idea of bodies being locked into a static state of glory aligns with what we understand about resurrected bodies.\u00a0 As far as I\u2019m aware, Latter-day Saint prophets have suggested and taught three different version of what will happen after the resurrection\u2014bodies will rise the same as they were laid down and not change, bodies will rise the same as they were laid down and will change, and bodies will rise in an ideal state and not change.\u00a0 I\u2019ve explored some of these in more detail before<\/a>, but let\u2019s look at a brief overview of each one:<\/p>\n

    \n
  1. Same and not change<\/strong>: President Joseph Smith taught the idea that \u201cas the child dies, so will it rise from the dead and be living in the burning of God and possessing all the intelligence of a God. It will never grow, <\/em>it will be the child in its precise form as it was before it died out of your arms. Children dwell and exercise power, throne upon throne, dominion upon dominion, in the same form just as you laid them down.\u201d[12]<\/a>\u00a0 He seems to have consistently taught this during the last couple years of his life, which indicates that Joseph Smith believed in 1842-1844 that resurrected beings come back the same and stay the same, even if they are babies.<\/li>\n
  2. Same and change<\/strong>: President Joseph F. Smith (remember the \u201cF.\u201d) was most famous for teaching this idea, and it seems to be connected to reconciling the idea of mothers having their children that died in their youth in the eternities with the idea of eventually having adult, perfected bodies in the resurrection.\u00a0 He taught: \u201cThe body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth or development in the grave. As it is laid down, so will it arise, and changes to perfection will come by the law of restitution. But the spirit will continue to expand and develop, and the body, after the resurrection will develop to the full stature of man.\u201d[13]<\/a> \u00a0He believed that people will rise the same way we knew them in mortality, \u201ceven to the wounds in the flesh.\u201d Afterwards, there would be a gradual perfection and healing of the body: \u201cNot that a person will always be marred\u00a0by scars, wounds, deformities, defects or infirmities, for these will be removed in their course, in their proper time, according to the merciful providence of God.\u201d[14]<\/a><\/li>\n
  3. Perfect and not Change: <\/strong>President Joseph Fielding Smith taught that: \u201cThere would be no purpose whatsoever in having the body of any individual come forth from the dead just as it is laid down, showing the effects of disease which would have to be eliminated following the resurrection.\u201d\u00a0 He noted the exception of Jesus having the wounds in his hands, feet, and side, but stated that this was merely \u201cdone to convince [his disciples] that they were not beholding a spirit\u201d and was \u201cfor a divine purpose of bearing witness.\u201d[15]<\/a> This idea has a decent amount of support from the scriptures (like Paul\u2019s analogy of the seed, mentioned above, or Alma\u2019s statement that \u201call things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame\u201d).[16]<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    Now, we\u2019re pretty far out into the hinterlands of grey areas in our theology that we don\u2019t really know the answer to, but I bring this up because our assumptions about the nature of resurrected bodies is important in determining if you believe in Bruce R. McConkie\u2019s assertion that there cannot be progression from kingdom to kingdom because \u201cthe body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.\u201d\u00a0 If we believe that the body we receive in the resurrection doesn\u2019t change after the resurrection (like Joseph Smith or Joseph Fielding Smith), then being locked into a specific glory potentially makes sense.\u00a0 If we believe that the body we receive in the resurrection does change after the resurrection (like Joseph F. Smith), then it does not make sense that we cannot progress in glory over time.<\/p>\n

    Again, I have no good answers as to what beliefs here represent reality (as I said in my last post<\/a>, \u201cwe\u2019ll likely have to learn the reality of the situation through personal experience\u201d), but there are consequences that flow from one doctrine to another depending on what you believe.\u00a0 If you interpret Paul\u2019s words to refer to specific levels of glory displayed by resurrected bodies and believe that we don\u2019t change after the resurrection, then Elder McConkie\u2019s teaching is plausible and make sense as an argument against progressing from kingdom to kingdom.\u00a0 I suspect, however, that we don\u2019t really know enough about the subject to take his words as definitive until we gain more experience on the topic.<\/p>\n

     <\/p>\n

    Footnotes:<\/strong><\/p>\n

    [1]<\/a> Bruce R. McConkie, \u201cThe Seven Deadly Heresies,\u201d BYU speech 1 June 1980,\u00a0https:\/\/speeches.byu.edu\/talks\/bruce-r-mcconkie_seven-deadly-heresies\/<\/a><\/p>\n

    [2]<\/a> 1 Corinthians 15:39-43, KJV.<\/p>\n

    [3]<\/a> “Vision, 16 February 1832 [D&C 76],” p. 6, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed July 8, 2021, https:\/\/www.josephsmithpapers.org\/paper-summary\/vision-16-february-1832-dc-76\/6<\/a><\/p>\n

    [4]<\/a> “Vision, 16 February 1832 [D&C 76],” p. 7, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed July 8, 2021, https:\/\/www.josephsmithpapers.org\/paper-summary\/vision-16-february-1832-dc-76\/7<\/a><\/p>\n

    [5]<\/a> “New Testament Revision 2 (first numbering),” p. 129 (second numbering), The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed July 8, 2021, https:\/\/www.josephsmithpapers.org\/paper-summary\/new-testament-revision-2\/197<\/a><\/p>\n

    [6]<\/a> 1 Corinthians 15:12, NRSV.<\/p>\n

    [7]<\/a> 1 Corinthians 15:35, NRSV.<\/p>\n

    [8]<\/a> 1 Corinthians 15:37, NRSV.<\/p>\n

    [9]<\/a> 1 Corinthians 15:39, NRSV.<\/p>\n

    [10]<\/a> 1 Corinthians 15:40-41, NRSV.<\/p>\n

    [11]<\/a> 1 Corinthians 15:42, NRSV.<\/p>\n

    [12]<\/a> Stan Larson, \u201cThe King Follett Discourse: A Newly Amalgamated Text,\u201d BYU Studies<\/em> 18, no. 2 <\/em>(1978), p. 16.<\/p>\n

    [13]<\/a> Joseph F. Smith, \u201cEditor\u2019s Table: On the Resurrection,\u201d\u00a0Improvement Era,<\/em>\u00a0June 1904, 623\u201324. Cited in\u00a0Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith<\/em>\u00a0(Salt Lake City: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1998, 2011), 91.\u00a0https:\/\/www.churchofjesuschrist.org\/study\/manual\/teachings-joseph-f-smith\/chapter-10?lang=eng<\/a><\/p>\n

    [14]<\/a> Joseph F. Smith, \u201cSpeech at the funeral services of Rachel Grant,\u201d\u00a0Improvement Era<\/em>, Vol 12, p. 591, June, 1909.\u00a0 Cited in\u00a0Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith<\/em>, 91-92.<\/p>\n

    [15]<\/a> Joseph Fielding Smith,\u00a0Answers to Gospel Questions: The Classic Collection in One Volume\u00a0<\/em>(Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1966), 5:43.<\/p>\n

    [16]<\/a> Alma 40:23.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    As I was working on my previous post, I had a thought I wanted to explore, but not enough space there: If we believe in eternal progression but also want to argue that there are limits to upward mobility in the eternities, we run into the question\u2014why? \u00a0Why wouldn\u2019t it be possible to continue repenting and progressing after resurrection and judgement?\u00a0 While there\u2019s a lot of potential answers (God said so, lower motivation to work on things in this life, etc.), one of the more interesting answers from Church leaders caught my attention as something to ponder.\u00a0 That answer was that the bodies we are resurrected with determine the level of glory in which we can dwell. During his efforts to state that God doesn\u2019t believe in opportunities for second chances in the afterlife, Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught that: The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies\u2014some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.[1] Thus, according to […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":10397,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[2895,18],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-41945","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-come-follow-me-currculum","category-general-doctrine"],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41945","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/10397"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=41945"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41945\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":41946,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41945\/revisions\/41946"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=41945"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=41945"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=41945"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}