{"id":16934,"date":"2011-09-04T15:42:21","date_gmt":"2011-09-04T20:42:21","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/?p=16934"},"modified":"2015-04-10T15:04:21","modified_gmt":"2015-04-10T20:04:21","slug":"shunning-the-unbelievers","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/2011\/09\/shunning-the-unbelievers\/","title":{"rendered":"Shunning the Unbelievers"},"content":{"rendered":"
I didn’t see anyone suggest “shunning” \u2014 or being rude or unkind \u2014 as being appropriate. But I do keep seeing repeated claims that it’s wrong. It seems a straw man that keeps being beaten down.<\/div>\n
First, yes, I have gay friends. Most of them were childhood friends, most of them former LDS. The rest are from my experience in performing arts (stereotypical, but true) or clients. I simply don’t run across a lot of gay folks at church or in homeschool groups or in playgroups, which is where I spend most of my public time.<\/div>\n
The “dilemma” some have, I believe, has more to it than has been suggested.<\/div>\n
First, I actually think there is some VALUE to having unacceptable behaviors stigmatized by a culture. Does homosexuality rise to that level? Does out of wedlock pregnancy? I don’t know, but culture certainly can impact how readily someone gets involved in a particular behavior.<\/div>\n
Do I ever “shun” someone based on their behavior? Sure.<\/div>\n
I have two former friends who are convicted felons. One is on the sex offender registry for arranging sex with a decoy acting as a 13-year-old. My husband still played basketball with the guy after he was released from prison. But my kids were not allowed to play at their house while we lived there (they did come to our house many times).<\/div>\n
The other friend is now in prison bilking millions and millions from people in a ponzi scheme. Back in 1998 \u2014 when he tried unsuccessfully (after YEARS of “friendship”) to cheat us in business \u2014 we cut off ties with him. Although we have always remained friends with his now ex-wife.<\/div>\n
Both of these guys engaged in behavior that we find intolerable. Your line may be different, but you all have a line.<\/div>\n
In 24 years of parenting 6 kids, I’ve also “shunned” a couple of playmates. Two kids who were incessantly rude, destructive, and\/or hurtful to my kids were not ever invited back.<\/div>\n
The point is that the idea that we can’t ever appropriately discern with whom we associate isn’t accurate. We do it all the time \u2014 and usually based on things much less significant than openly sinful behavior.<\/div>\n
Second, yes, everyone is a sinner, but there ARE different levels of sin. There are those that can get you excommunicated and those that can remove you from the ability to obtain saving ordinances, and those that can’t. Engaging in homosexual behavior is the former.<\/div>\n
Third, homosexuality only becomes an issue if it’s a KNOWN issue. My next door neighbor might not pay his tithing, but I won’t know about that unless he tells me. If my next door neighbor is living with his husband and they kiss each other goodbye and hold hands \u2014 in other words, if they act like regular, civilized couples \u2014 it’s a KNOWN issue.<\/div>\n
Fourth, how we respond when we KNOW a person is committing a major sin impacts our children and how they view the sins. (And, I suppose, others as well, but I’m more concerned about my kids.) There is a huge difference between how kids these days see out of wedlock pregnancy and homosexual behavior compared to my generation. Every one of my high school and older kids has had gay friends. And the struggle LDS kids have with the standard vs. the culture is real.<\/div>\n
One of the cool places to visit in Florida is Miami Beach. The retro architecture is fun and the beach is great. But there’s a lot of PDA going on. LOTS. And lots of it is gay PDA. So, yes, I dislike it when a heterosexual couple it rabidly making out in public. It’s stupid. But, according to LDS doctrine, a homosexual couple who is rabidly making out in public isn’t just stupid, it’s immoral.<\/div>\n
So do you behave differently when you (and your kids) witness immature behavior than when you witness immoral behavior?<\/div>\n

Julie’s post “In Which My Opinion of Mitch Mayne Improves<\/a>,” brought an onslaught of arguments against “shunning” homosexuals. I\u00a0didn’t see anyone suggest shunning \u2014 or being rude or unkind or spitting on or flogging or tarring and feathering \u2014 \u00a0homosexuals was a great idea. It seemed a straw man that kept being beaten down.<\/p>\n

With that in mind, I’d like to discuss the efficacy of the position that “\u2026we ought to be kind to everyone, for that is right you see.”<\/p>\n

Last week in Gospel Doctrine, my class discussed at some length how contention was never acceptable from God’s people. I kept wondering if they’d missed all the wars and conflicts God had commanded. I mean if you can chop off someone’s head justifiably, isn’t it possible that you can strongly assert a position once in a while and still be on God’s good side?<\/p>\n

So if we don’t have to be friendly to everyone, all the time, no matter what, and we can even strongly disagree \u2014 a position I’m assuming here \u2014 then what methods of non-acceptance are morally acceptable?<\/p>\n

To be clear, I’m not<\/strong> just talking about non-acceptance of homosexual behavior, but of any behavior deemed problematic or sinful by the church or culture. That point is particularly important because when we discuss homosexuality, we seem to get lost in a sea of agendas. Rather than focusing on principle, homosexuality becomes a special case to which none of the rules apply. I want to discuss the rules.<\/p>\n

In Julie’s post, some commenters brought up the dilemma of how to deal with those who commit sinful behavior.\u00a0Here are some other parts of that dilemma that may impact the discussion.<\/p>\n

    \n
  1. There may be cultural value in stigmatizing unacceptable behavior.<\/li>\n
  2. We all have boundaries with regard to whom we do and do not associate \u2014 and many of those boundaries are far less significant than sinful behavior.<\/li>\n
  3. Everyone is a sinner.<\/li>\n
  4. There are<\/strong> different levels of sin. There are those that can get you excommunicated and those that can remove you from the ability to obtain saving ordinances, and those that can’t.<\/li>\n
  5. Many sins only become an association dilemma if they are known issues.\u00a0My next door neighbor might not pay his tithing, but I won’t know about that unless he tells me. If my next door neighbor is living with his husband and they kiss each other goodbye and hold hands \u2014 in other words, if they act like regular, civilized couples \u2014 it’s a known issue. A high school kid might be screwing around, but many won’t know about it. If a girl in high school becomes pregnant, you at least know she had sex.<\/li>\n
  6. Refusing to condemn bad behavior<\/a> has real victims.<\/li>\n
  7. How we respond to obnoxious, disrespectful, harmful, and\/or sinful behavior does impact our children and how they view the behavior. (It influences adults as well.)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    Please discuss how you determine including and\/or excluding people in various parts of you life. If you choose to exclude anyone (and you do!), what does that exclusion look like?<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    I didn’t see anyone suggest “shunning” \u2014 or being rude or unkind \u2014 as being appropriate. But I do keep seeing repeated claims that it’s wrong. It seems a straw man that keeps being beaten down. First, yes, I have gay friends. Most of them were childhood friends, most of them former LDS. The rest are from my experience in performing arts (stereotypical, but true) or clients. I simply don’t run across a lot of gay folks at church or in homeschool groups or in playgroups, which is where I spend most of my public time. The “dilemma” some have, I believe, has more to it than has been suggested. First, I actually think there is some VALUE to having unacceptable behaviors stigmatized by a culture. Does homosexuality rise to that level? Does out of wedlock pregnancy? I don’t know, but culture certainly can impact how readily someone gets involved in a particular behavior. Do I ever “shun” someone based on their behavior? Sure. I have two former friends who are convicted felons. One is on the sex offender registry for arranging sex with a decoy acting as a 13-year-old. My husband still played basketball with the guy after he […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":116,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-16934","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-corn"],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/16934","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/116"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=16934"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/16934\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":33219,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/16934\/revisions\/33219"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=16934"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=16934"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/timesandseasons.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=16934"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}