Comments on: A Credible Case for Universalism — A Review of Givens and Givens’s The Christ Who Heals

By: David Evans

David Evans — Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:13:00 +0000

Jerry and Clark are correct: The Givenses argue explicitly (and I include this in the blog post) that this is not a settled point of doctrine. They merely argue that they retain hope for eternal opportunity, and they provide some evidence to support that hope.

By: Clark Goble

Clark Goble — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 18:01:58 +0000

I think that’s right Jerry, although knowing the sources Givens uses if not their exact arguments, I’m skeptical they can make a convincing case. I suspect it’ll be persuasive to those already inclined towards universalism. But I’m really skeptical one can make a compelling arguments one way or the other. As I said it ultimately rests upon the nature of the soul and there’s not good arguments there (IMO).

By: Jerry Schmidt

Jerry Schmidt — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 04:20:01 +0000

The OP, as I understand it, posits that the Givens thesis makes a convincing case for Universalism, not that Universalism is LDS doctrine. Certainly any definitive statement as to whether Universalism as a Christian school of thought is supported by the LDS church is beyond the scope of the OP or this web site.

My understanding about the posts on this web site is that these topics are valid points of departure for exploration of that which informs LDS thinking past and present. We share thoughts and try argument-counter argument as this is how -ology, the study of anything, usually works. The cool thing about the information age is how we all can participate without going to a public bath as Greeks and Rmoans did, and no slaves are used to stoke the fires, though slaves may or not be used to generate electricity for the host server(s).

By: Jeff Walsh

Jeff Walsh — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 09:24:02 +0000

Good morning fellow bloggers, well now that it would seem that all has been said and done is universalism a doctrine of the Church or not?

By: Jeff Walsh

Jeff Walsh — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 00:21:54 +0000

The only conflict would be is if you are implying that not all of our fathers spirit children in our round of creation did not come just to our earth but to other earths as well Was not Moses told that only an account of this earth would he be given? With D&C 130:5 being applicable. If you are implying this it is new to me!!!!

By: Clark Goble

Clark Goble — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 23:56:08 +0000

Not much to say there beyond that we once lived as God’s children where the Father lives. So I don’t see the conflict. And again I think you’re pushing it further than is justified once you think through what creation entails.

By: Jeff Walsh

Jeff Walsh — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 23:26:43 +0000

Clark I am not saying this of myself, I am quoting scripture. I have always understood that the Plan of Salvation is a Universal Plan controlled by Universal Law. This being so on each earth according to D&C 130:5 only those who have or will live on each world can act as angels and ministering spirits. What right have we to assume that angels or ministering spirits from our earth can minister to other worlds. or vice-versa Elder McConkie quoting Joseph Smith tells us that even the messenger that asked Adam why he was offering sacrifice after the fall was a ministering spirit either from the pre-existence or someone who had come to earth and then died and resided in the spirit world awaiting a future resurrection. No where in the 4 standard works are we told of messengers coming to this earth who have not resided here or would not do so The example of this is clearly evidenced in the temple, who was it that were sent to give Adam and Eve further light and knowledge?. Even Lucifer is a fellow spirit assigned to this earth. If you have evidence that this divine law has not been followed on this earth please enlighten me. I apologise to any who think I am just being argumentative, but I do feel pretty strongly about this, even though we have strayed from the pros and cons of universalism.

By: Clark Goble

Clark Goble — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 19:02:56 +0000

Jeff, the fact angels who come here to minister to particular humans are from this world says nothing about whether they can go to other worlds. If you think about this quickly you'll see the problem of taking this as universal. (Resurrected beings can only go to this world) Think of the creation of other worlds.

By: Jeff Walsh

Jeff Walsh — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 18:08:50 +0000

Clark, Logic tells me that Joseph was seeing this earth after it has received its celestial glory, after all we have no scriptural evidence that tells us that anyone in this dispensation has been resurrected yet. It will then become . our Celestial Kingdom where all who have or will receive exaltation will dwell. . The snag with your last point is that D&C 130:5 says:-

“But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or who have belonged to it.”

If this is a divine law applicable to all worlds then the prophets mentioned in D&C 138:51 who are continuing their labours are doing so here on planet earth, they cannot be labouring any where else.

Joseph Smith explained the difference between, an angel and a ministering spirit:-

” The difference between an angel and a ministering spirit, the one is a resurrected or translated body, with its spirit, ministering to embodied spirits, the other a disembodied spirit , visiting and ministering to disembodied spirits. (TPJS p 191)

By: Clark Goble

Clark Goble — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 16:34:37 +0000

Jeff, must have seen a future state. However that state could well be representative (i.e. symbolic), a near future state or the final state. There’s no way in the text to distinguish.

Regarding resurrected beings, I’d imagine any theology would have them moving between places depending upon what their tasks are.

By: Jeff Walsh

Jeff Walsh — Sat, 06 Jan 2018 13:31:49 +0000

Clark I fail to see the logic of your comment, Joseph must have been seeing the future state because in the vision he saw his father and mother as well as Alvin. But his father was in the same room in the temple when he received the vision. Of course the others he saw very likely had been resurrected because scripture and especially D&C 138 tells us that those who merited a celestial resurrection were still in the spirit world when the Saviour appeared and organised his forces and bridged the gap between paradise and the Spirit prison and would have been among the forces sent over to the spirit prison to preach the gospel. Further when the Saviour was resurrected scripture tells us that very lightly all the prophets of the Old Testament who had proved themselves were resurrected with Him. He being the first. D&C 138:51-52 tells us:-

” These the Lord taught and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life.
And continue thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which were held in reserve for those that love him”

I do not think that we can assume that these prophets became citizens of our Heavenly Father’s Kingdom at that time, They went there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life. Because the next verse tells us that they continued their labours so that the could be partakers of all the promised blessings. Surely their continuing labour would not be in Heavenly Father’s celestial Kingdom it would be here on planet earth

As I said in my previous post it has not been revealed where the habitation of all those who lived on this earth and had been resurrected is. Maybe they are similar to translated beings who Joseph told us that their habitation is that of a terrestrial order a place prepared for such characters (TPJS p 170)

By: Clark Goble

Clark Goble — Fri, 05 Jan 2018 15:53:23 +0000

My point is just that D&C 137 isn't necessarily seeing that future state but could be seeing people who right now are resurrected.

By: Jeff Walsh

Jeff Walsh — Fri, 05 Jan 2018 11:21:10 +0000

Fellow bloggers, it is a disadvantage keeping up with the discussion from the UK because of the time difference. My observation is that we need to have a correct understanding of the difference between salvation and exaltation. In one sense all of Heavenly Father’s spirit children who have or will come to this earth will be resurrected and because of this we will be saved from temporal death. However the place where we will spend eternity will depend on our actions here during the time we have been given to prepare to meet God. The whole plan of salvation would be nonsensical if we are all going to become exalted eventually anyway. Why bother to live the commandments here if this was the case, and quite frankly isn’t this what the arch deceiver wants us to believe?. What would be the point of performing work for the dead, are we just wasting our time attending the Temple? If this is what we think we are believing the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

Clark could I just comment on your observations on the point about celestial kingdoms. It is my understanding from the scriptures and especially from Joseph Smith’s teachings. In the King Follett sermon, which I believe we all need to have a full understanding of being the last major sermon before his death. It was given at the April Conference of the Church a few short weeks before his death. In it he said speaking of those who die true to the gospel and become heirs of God and Joint Heirs with Jesus Christ

” What is it? To inherit the same power the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same, AND WHEN I GET MY KINGDOM (my emphasis) I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself”.(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith selected from his teachings by Joseph Fielding Smith pp 347-348)

So where is the Saviour’s kingdom to be? Here on this earth when eventually it becomes a Celestial sphere and is taken back into the presence of Heavenly Father with all the other celestial worlds. We are told by Paul and others that all born on this world and are worthy of a Celestial resurrection will become joint heirs with our Saviour on this earth. This is where Jesus and His joint heirs will be blessed with the “continuation of the seeds forever”. Where the few who lived on this earth and have already been resurrected are dwelling has not been made known, indeed Moses was only given knowledge of this planet. So if as Joseph told us Jesus Christ is doing what he saw His Father do that is to perfect his life on the planet which he went to gain His exaltation which also became His Celestial Kingdom and the planet where we were born as spirits. So Jesus and his Joint Heirs will do the same and thus will begin another round of existence for more children of more Gods..

“

By: Clark

Clark — Fri, 05 Jan 2018 03:33:31 +0000

Nathan, it's worth reading this paper on Brigham Young's conception of the natural man. Part of the problem is that "nature" is a particularly complex word. Clearly Brigham wasn't using the word in the sense that the Book of Mormon does. At other times he does. Not sure how the Givens use Brigham so I can't comment there. I'll confess in my own use I often follow Brigham and mean quite different things depending upon context. Kangaroo, I don't think that's true. Rather the dispute isn't over whether grace is fully offered but in what senses people are able to accept it. One camp says there is no essential structures to ourselves which can't be changed by free choices. Others think there are and that those structures are even outside of God's control. So by focusing on grace I think we're asking the wrong question here. The issue really is the nature of the soul.

By: Kangaroo

Kangaroo — Fri, 05 Jan 2018 03:23:06 +0000

I think that we have created a very very narrow theological narratives to many of our doctrines which closes and excludes much of Gods real grace to ALL his children…..come on universalism