Comments on: What the LDS Can Learn From the NFL https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Chet https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543071 Sun, 19 Nov 2017 07:45:25 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543071 I would like to hear the authorized and official arguments for not cancelling BYU football, just like I would like to hear how long the Church plans to keep Scouting for the younger boys and why.

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By: Mike (a different one) https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543070 Sat, 18 Nov 2017 23:55:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543070 Michael H- second paragraph. Nov 12, 2017 1210 am comment, Amen and amen.

For me this is the most significant comparison. Spot on.

American football is ending.

Read the article below for a quick review of why. It simply is too dangerous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

Consider these lists of former NFL players with CTE. A group of 4500 of them won a class action lawsuit against the NFL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_with_chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy.

For perspective this will be nearly 10% of the number of soldiers who died in Vietnam before it is over- in the NFL alone. Thousands and thousands of of college, or high school players with mostly less severe but real damage will also be afflicted.

Mothers of young boys are getting the message and enrollment in pee wee football is declining sharply.

***

I have a son who was gifted with the physique to play college football. But he was never interested in team sports. He was curious, a scientist at heart, almost from birth. He likes friendly one-on-one contests of strength between friends; such as arm wrestling, or tug of war, especially while standing on stumps, and thumb wars. He clearly was stronger than the scouts in his non-LDS troop who played high school football and they convinced the coach to ask him to consider leaving the sissy sport of distance running and join the manly football team. He famously replied: “With all due respect, coach, I have better things to do with my head than hitting other people with it.”

Some of these other things included carrying the heavy packs of younger scouts on backpacking trips, carrying my Dutch oven on the same, saving an overweight LDS scout’s life during an asthma attack, who out weighed him by carrying him up a 2000 feet elevation gain over 4 miles in less than an hour on a hot, humid day ( 108 F – 95% humidity).Tonight he is in Houston mucking out flooded houses for the umpteen weekend since the storm, gathering small teams from among his friends and driving them down there. I imagine he takes a thoughtful approach to each task and applies his tremendous strength to it and he can work like a mule for 12-16 hours in the worst conditions. I imagine they get quite a bit done.

I will skip over his many academic achievements, but summarize with the claim (of a biased parent) that he might be among the very brightest graduate students in physics in the USA.

One of his current assignments is teaching physics to undergraduates. He has quite a number of football players interested in his classes and he is gently teaching them the basic principles they need to know in order to make a sensible decision on what is the better thing to do with their heads. Not a few are quitting the team.

In the mean time, BYU football continues to languish, I believe they are disgracing themselves yet again at this very moment loosing to a very wimpy U Mass team. At least they are not getting into brawls with ghetto thugs like they did under Bronco M____. For this I am grateful. If our church leaders had wise vision they would cancel BYU football at the end of this season and quietly launch a campaign to end it for other teams as well. And if they had more wise vision concerning the direction of the church they might take equally drastic measures. But I have almost lost my faith in them, personally.

Don’t watch any football.

Don’t let your babies grow up to be football players.

As for the LDS church- I leave that up to your own judgment.

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By: Mike https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543043 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:07:12 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543043 Interesting thoughts/comments. I’m torn between the position of this being a time of separation between the wheat and the tares and the need for adjustment by the institutional church. I stilll think this is the Lord’s church, but recognize that He does not micromanage and allows people to make mistakes. I think, however, that people can too easily get caught up in the notion that these issues are ONLY about the leaders needing to correct course and the Lord being the head of the church having no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.

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By: MTodd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543033 Tue, 14 Nov 2017 02:37:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543033 And John Lundwall wins this thread!

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By: John Lundwall https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543031 Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:36:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543031 I read the title of this OP and got excited; finally, I thought, someone is bringing up the obvious truth that any event that lasts three hours or longer should have a half-time and nachos!

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By: Ziff https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543024 Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:04:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543024 Really interesting comparison, Dave. This point you made in particular struck me: “Mormons, too, are quite loyal but not endlessly loyal, a fact not always appreciated by senior leadership.” I think this is spot on. Of course the parallel isn’t perfect, but the NFL seems vastly more aware that fans can be fickle, that they can leave if they don’t like what’s happening, regardless of how much history of devotion they might have. Senior Church leaders seem pretty unaware of this reality. Choices to enter or exit a church are probably made with more thought and consideration than choices to start or stop watching the NFL, so there’s more inertia there, but it does seem like as you said, that Church leaders think there’s virtually infinite inertia keeping you in once you’re in, and there really isn’t.

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By: Psychochemiker https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543020 Sun, 12 Nov 2017 13:13:35 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543020 The lesson church could learn that nobody wins when you allow identity politics to steal the stage…. Keep white supremacy And black identity complainers silent at church.

Also, anytime people are allowing their cause of offense to matter more than the gospel, they’ll destroy the church if they are allowed to thrive rather than cut out like a cancer.

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By: Jerry Schmidt https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543019 Sun, 12 Nov 2017 13:10:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543019 Part of the problem in this dialogue is the introduction of the term “gay” and infering its definition is not homosexual desire or behavior. The LDS church has defined what it considers homosexuality to be, and what its policy and doctrine are in relation to that definition. If there are cultural elements both in and out of the church with people insisting the church is not addressing their particular view point, it is most likely because they have not defined “gay” definititively and/or resist external attempts at defining “gay” as they interpret such attempts at definition as attempts at control.

This necessarily puts the LDS church in a cultural position it will never effectively meet. The LDS church may not offer a one-size-fits-all gospel of the Christ, but it cannot support the individual defining of moral and ethical behavior. Such behavior, as far as the LDS church is concerned, is necessarily defined by the Christ as the only fitting judge of this behavior.

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By: Michael H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543018 Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:10:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543018 Great post.The comparisons abound. I think history has proven that any institution, despite having a cadre of true-believers, is susceptible to irreversible decline if it’s board of directors or spiritual leadership fail to make a timely course correction.

It’s also worth noting that many football fans are walking away because they’re finding the game inherently destructive (see photos of Aaron Hernandez’s brain). The equivalent within Mormonism is obvious; many are leaving not only because they’re miffed over one policy, but because they arrive at the conclusion that the whole belief system is wrong.

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By: Left Field https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543017 Sun, 12 Nov 2017 02:01:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543017 The Church’s distinction between sexual inclination and behavior dates at least to an October 1995 Ensign article, which in turn cites a 1991 First Presidency letter.

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By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543016 Sat, 11 Nov 2017 23:47:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543016 We’re probably betterserved…

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By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543015 Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:33:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543015 We’re probably served by accepting the teachings of the apostles as a whole, rather than pitting them against each other. 1 Cor. 1:12-ff and 3:4-ff come to mind.

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By: JR https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543014 Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:00:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543014 Dave, 2010 is not 30 or 40 years ago and I am not comparing anything to current social and scientific views. I’m asking what evidence there is that BKP was a steadying hand relative to the November 2015 “going off the rails.” There is evidence of his moderating his views over time, but it is mostly in the form of not repeating (while also not disavowing) earlier mistakes. Why not assume President Monson (while still actively engaged) or Elder Oaks or Elder Wickman or Elder Holland or President Uchtdorf or others were the steadying hands?

It seems unfair to suppose that SWK and other Church leaders ever thought homosexuality, understood as same-sex attraction, was a sin. They seem to have been unaware that it existed. They (and Pope John Paul II and many others) used the word “homosexuality” to mean same-sex erotic behavior. As described elsewhere, at least as long ago as the early 70s some local Church leaders had begun to learn that “being gay” was not the same thing as engaging in same-sex sexual intercourse. But the trickle down (or up) effect of that learning has been slow and incomplete. Judging from his October 2010 conference talk as given, BKP had still not learned that distinction. I have not found any evidence that he ever learned it. And you have cited for his “steadying hand” on that subject only the fact that the November 2015 policy followed BKP’s death (by about 4 months). His passing followed the Supreme Court Obergefell decision by only a week. He likely didn’t do much steadying in that time.

Actually, it’s hard to tell IF the Church is pursuing any long-term strategy. I suspect we agree on more than we disagree. It’s hard to pin a particular steadying hand role on any particular leader.

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By: Dave Banack https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543013 Sat, 11 Nov 2017 16:22:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543013 JR, in addition to what MTodd noted about the distinction the Church started making between homosexuality per se (no longer a sin) and particular actions, there was the interview (well, transcript of an alleged interview) that LDS Public Affairs conducted with Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman in 2006. At the time, the views expressed in the interview were a clear step forward for the Church. It’s unfair to cite positions from 30 or 40 years ago. Society and science have changed views drastically in that period, so it’s unfair to compare LDS or Elder Packer’s views from 30 or 40 years ago with current social and scientific views.

It’s hard to tell what long-term strategy the Church is pursuing here. The present policy seems to be to stay as conservative as possible for as long as possible, and compromise only when the alternative is to take unacceptable hits to credibility or social acceptability. It’s an ad hoc retreat. A good discussion outlining the difficulties Church leadership faces going forward (because it has not really grappled with the underlying scientific facts about homosexuality) is this recent presentation by Greg Prince.

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By: MTodd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/what-the-lds-can-learn-from-the-nfl/#comment-543012 Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:02:58 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37335#comment-543012 I think Dave Banack is right: it’s hard “to pin particular views or policies on particular leaders”. As an example, Oaks oversaw BYU during a particularly dark period for LGBT students and, from his most recent conference talk, he’s clearly not a fan of homosexuality. But from a leaked document, it seems he is the author of the church’s current teaching that gay attractions are not a sin, but gay actions are. While not perfect, this teaching towards homosexuality is a vast improvement over earlier approaches to this issue. He’s also the most recent apostle to use General Conference to decry persecuting our LGBT brothers and sisters:

“When our positions do not prevail, we should accept unfavorable results graciously and practice civility with our adversaries. In any event, we should be persons of goodwill toward all, rejecting persecution of any kind, including persecution based on race, ethnicity, religious belief or nonbelief, and differences in sexual orientation.”

(I wonder if here he was speaking less to the church body and more to other, more right-winged members of the Q12.)

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