Comments on: Mysteries of a Diachronic Narrative – Reading Nephi – 16:26-32 https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Jerry Schmidt https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543199 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 12:53:25 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543199 I want to bring up that while Nephi appears to fit his perceptions into a pre-existing narrative form, with Jung I would say this is largely unconscious on Nephi’s part. It may be obvious to us because we have the benefit of tremendous hindsight. For Nephi, I would argue the narrative conflict is less derived from larger external culture and more a familial pattern or “family tradition” that unfortunately keeps repeating in Joseph’s lineage.

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By: CKNY https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543066 Fri, 17 Nov 2017 22:20:06 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543066 Surprised no one has mentioned the seer stone narrative within this context.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543057 Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:22:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543057 James I think that’s an important point, and may underlie some of the criticisms of what you are doing. Reading some of say Alter’s work on type scenes is rather important to understand the narrative conventions Nephi is working under. As a literary feature of even personal history culturally we tend to emphasize what is unique and put a strong value on objectivity of a sort. (Even when we’re far from doing it, it remains an ideal in the background) This simply wasn’t the case in ancient literature. Instead what was most true was what fit existing archetypes. It was repetition of the pattern that was focused on. This is true not only of the Old Testament, but as N. T. Wright is fond of pointing out also the new. That is people read these narratives not as history independent of themselves which at best one may draw strained allegories out of. Rather they read it as teaching archetypes of which they are a part. The type scenes aren’t just a literary trope but are a fundamental way of how people viewed events.

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543054 Fri, 17 Nov 2017 12:29:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543054 Jerry & Clark, I think this is a very important element of Nephi. I also think that his “fitting things to a pre-existing narrative” seemed very different to Nephi than it does to someone doing so today—if Pres. Nelson, for example, wrote an autobiography that was constantly making parallels to earlier prophets’ lives. That would be very odd. One can’t escape our modern sense of history today. Finding and fashioning parallels, however, perhaps “likening,” just was the main reason for incorporating history into scripture. Since Nephi is self-consciously writing scripture, it would be odd if he weren’t to some extent intentionally mimicking scripture as well.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543039 Wed, 15 Nov 2017 16:05:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543039 Jerry I think that you’re right. We know Nephi in particular is fond of allegories and type settings. It’s hard not to see Jacob and Esau constantly in the background. Nephi in particular sees himself as a weird combination of Moses, Jacob, Joseph and even Isaac with his father being Abraham.

I’d add that if we take seriously Nephi fitting his history into the archetypes of these earlier figures then it’s hard not to see the murmuring in light of the children of Israel in the 40 year journey or Joseph’s brothers upset at Joseph. How much of that is a literary feature, how much is how he actually saw Laman and Lemnuel at the time, and how much is just unfair isn’t clear. However it does suggest that we should tread cautiously and that Nephi might be fitting things to a pre-existing narrative rather than trying to be fair in a more objective fashion.

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By: Jerry Schmidt https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543028 Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:44:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543028 Again, for me, the issue between Lamuel (sorry) and Nephi is similar to that dispute between Jacob and Esau; a dispute over birthright. As Nephi pointed out to his brothers, God favors obedience to His revealed will over tradition, even tradition based on past revelation. By extension, and this plays out in biblical Joseph’s narrative also, God chooses His authorities, they are not self-chosen nor is the authority inherited.

I see, correctly or incorrectly, this pattern repeated through the Old and New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and LDS church history. Inheritance is a persistent human claim, though the examples I have seen in biblical narratives show inheritance as problematic at best. One of the ideas I was raised with was the United States promised a new political tradition that rejected inheritance, so I view human inheritance (material inheritance) as ultimately destructive of self and others.

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543026 Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:31:35 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543026 Jerry – the relevance of the mitzvah to honor one’s father and mother is a great insight here vis-a-vis the sons of Ishmael. I don’t remember thinking about it, but it certainly helps to make sense of the timing of the rebellion after Ishmael’s death. One of my future posts takes this rebellion up again.

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543025 Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:24:10 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543025 ji – Thanks for your thoughts. Rather than respond directly, I’ve decided to respond indirectly and more fully (i.e., generally) in a separate post.

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By: Jerry Schmidt https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543023 Mon, 13 Nov 2017 14:42:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543023 James Olsen, I may not agree with your conclusions, but I appreciate the alternate view you provide.

For me, the sons of Ishmael saw themselves as having fulfilled their obligation to the mitzvot to “honor thy father and thy mother,” and felt they did not owe Lehi this same. Nephi was loyal to Lehi on at leat two levels, as son and as one who recognized Lehi as a prophet of God. Laman and Lemuel persistently sought reason to disobey Lehi despite their obligation under the mitzvot.

I agree with you this is a political dilemma for the group, but Nephi appropriately asserts his father’s authority, if not as the next patriarch of the clan, then as the one elder male still heeding God’s instructions and receiving revelation from God, and therfore qualified to lead.

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By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/11/reading-nephi-1626-32/#comment-543022 Mon, 13 Nov 2017 11:34:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37134#comment-543022 Well, Nephi was telling the story which is the story of a split in the children of Lehi, so it makes sense that he describes instances of Laman’s obstinacy.

I know some sophisticated people like to think of Nephi as petty, self-serving, and self-aggrandizing, and Laman as the pitiful object of a younger brother’s unrighteousness coup, and like to say we only hear one side of the story (Nephi’s), and Nephi obviously wrote to justify and cover his own faults. I think this is a perverse way to approach it.

Of course the record only touches on a few facts and happenings — that’s the nature of a record. I think Nephi carefully (not maliciously) selected events that would help others understand the story of faith (not justify his own unrighteousness).

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