Comments on: The Filthy Waters of Life – Reading Nephi – 15:21-36 part II https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542767 Fri, 06 Oct 2017 23:20:27 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542767 Clark, Unfortunately, my library is going into boxes for a while so I can’t provide more details other than general references, but your FPR post citation helped answer something I’d been wondering for a long time. Thanks for the link!

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542762 Thu, 05 Oct 2017 23:02:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542762 Brill’s A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19 is well worth checking out too and is where many of the parallels arise.

I should note that while some 1 Enoch parallels are striking, often the differences are quite glaring as well. And of course 1 Enoch is clearly a very late composite text likely composed between 100 BCE and 100 AD although presumably made up of reworked earlier traditions and texts. As such too much parallel could be seen as anachronistic for Nephi and a problem. For instance the question of the spirit world of the dead for the gloomy wilderness would be a problem. Of course Nephi doesn’t equate it with the underworld or the land of the dead.

There’s also a more apologetic debate over whether Joseph would have had access to 1 Enoch. (See this FPR post from last week for instance)

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542761 Thu, 05 Oct 2017 21:44:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542761 James, there are several new publications about Enoch (including some in BYU Studies from a conference held a few years ago). Nickelsburg’s 2 volume 1 Enoch Hermeneia (2d vol. with James Van Der Kam) is kind of the gold standard, although there’s a couple of commentaries on the “Animal Apocalypse”, one by Daniel Olsen (Brill, 2013), and Tiller (SBL, 1993). Also there’s one on 91-108 by Loren Stuckenbruck. Not a full commentary, but a valuable tool is Kelly Coblentz Bautch’s “No One Has Seen What I Have Seen”, an analysis of the geography of 1 En. 17-19 (Brill, 2003). The Nickelsburg-Van Dam translation is available in e-book format and is fairly cheap (although the Hermeneia volumes are expensive). Jack Welch reviewed the first volume in an old FARMS review. Nickelsburg even mentioned Nibley’s Enoch the Prophet in it (as an example of how thorough it is in its coverage).

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542758 Thu, 05 Oct 2017 18:44:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542758 Water as dividing is a classic image of the Exodus pattern where the Jordan river separates the promised land from the wilderness. Interesting Nephi ties the river symbolically to baptism.

The difference in the “sin” river between Enoch and Nephi is intriguing. For Enoch the infernal river is of fire with more traditional “hell” imagery you associate with the second temple period.

There’s also a tower in the section called the animal apocalypse (85-90). There various animals and a shepherd symbolize Israel’s history. The house (temple) is made “great and spacious” (1 Enoch 89:50) Water, darkness and mist increases. Various symbolic events happen by wild beasts devouring the sheep and the house is destroyed (the exile). They rebuild the house and tower but offer polluted food. etc.

It’s not a perfect match and clearly reflects a relatively late (say 100 BCE) tradition. It’s more the symbolism that’s interesting. The this apocalypse the “great and spacious” sometimes is the temple and sometimes is a corrupt version. However it may reflect an earlier tradition that’d presumably have different use. There are other towers in the text as well that Enoch is taken to in order to see various destructions. So the use of a tower to represent pride is missing. Instead the tower is the temple and it’s height the ideal mountain (remnant of ideas from before the Josiah removal of high places most likely).

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542757 Thu, 05 Oct 2017 16:35:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542757 Clark, this is fascinating. It’s been years since I’ve read the Enoch texts, and I didn’t remember any of this. And I’m particularly intrigued by the idea of water (in all it’s religious symbolism) as a dividing element.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542754 Tue, 03 Oct 2017 14:50:07 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542754 A few thoughts.

1. While the tree is equated with the tree of life, the tree of life itself is extremely symbolic in many ways
2. It’s worth comparing Nephi’s vision to Enochian literature. In particular a lot of the geography bears many similarities with 1 Enoch. (See the brief discussion in the comments to one of your earlier posts) So for instance 1 Enoch 17 has a “great river” and a place of “great darkness.” Many tie it to greek myths of the land of the dead. Broadly a dark region is typically the realm of the dead although a few suggest it’s the darkness on the otherside of the vault of heaven.
3. The filthy river isn’t in 1 Enoch although as anyone who has seen a desert flash flood knows, this is an easy metaphor to make. However there are two different rivers – one is a river of living waters and the other is clearly infernal
4. In 1 Enoch beyond the darkness is the Garden of Eden. (see 24-25) Typically (but not universally) scholars see this as a the tree of life.
5. Michael in 1 Enoch says the fruit of the tree of life is inaccessible until after judgment.
6. Reading 1 Enoch with Nephi suggests the vision is partially what we today would call Spirit Prison and Paradise while awaiting judgment/resurrection.
7. Michael Austin at BCC did an interesting post last year arguing Nephi’s vision is a corrective on Genesis 2. (We should note that it’s not clear what creation accounts Nephi had – typically Gen 2-3 is dated to the Babylonian exile.
8. The imagery paralleling the ocean separating new world from old is a good one. I’d never noticed it although the Exodus pattern also fits where the river Jordan has a similar role.

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542753 Tue, 03 Oct 2017 14:24:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542753 BevP: I like the interpretation that the reason Lehi fails to notice it’s filthiness is because of his own righteousness (which could be a way of interpreting Lehi’s “mind” being so “taking up” with other things).

Robert: That’s a consistent way of interpreting the text, but one that goes well beyond what the text itself gives us.

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By: Robert Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542752 Tue, 03 Oct 2017 06:02:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542752 The river of filthy water is a representation of hell. It has its own head, or source, of which is not from the tree of life. The narrow and strait path is next to the rod of iron which is itself running parallel to the river of filthiness but on the dame side as the tree of life. Opposite of this side is the great and spacious building. The river itself is spoken of as the gulf that divides the righteous from the wicked. So, there are basically two fountains spoken of. One is the tree of life which is also the fountain of all righteousness, the love of God. The other is the fountain of all unrighteousness. Their sources come from opposite ends.

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By: BevP https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/10/reading-nephi-1521-36-part-ii/#comment-542749 Mon, 02 Oct 2017 18:56:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37114#comment-542749 For years I have wondered about this question. Can we, through our choices on the way, perhaps by letting go the iron rod for some of them, pollute the waters of life and render them filthy, and is Lehi’s failure to notice the filthiness of the water suggest that perhaps for him, the water may be pure? All ponderings welcome please!

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