Comments on: Revelation’s Demand for More Revelation – Reading Nephi – 15:1-11 part I https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: rob osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542633 Tue, 12 Sep 2017 00:31:07 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542633 Clark,
Its a paramount falacy to believe the weaknesses of men means they showed bias in the record. Thats completely off base.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542631 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 19:44:06 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542631 I just disagree that’s what the book purports to be. I think you’ve consistently misrepresented it. You’re projecting onto the book what you think being true entails. The book itself never pretends to be without error. Rather it explicitly mentions the “weaknesses of men.” You’re the one denying there are any. And with that I’ll drop the topic unless you have a new argument rather than simply repeating your premise over and over again.

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By: Rob Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542630 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:50:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542630 Yeah. One can either have faith the Book of Mormon is what it purports itself to be and find the truth or one can be lead about by doubt never coming to the end result of faith.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542628 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:22:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542628 i.e. take it as infallible unless there’s overwhelming argument against it I assume. I just fundamentally disagree but as I said we’re going around in circles.

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By: Rob Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542627 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:13:03 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542627 Clark,
I feel, as a LDS, that we should take all of the record of the Book of Mormon as truth. I think its okay to try to read some things logically into the text as long as we do not make unwarranted assumptions that spread doubt about the legitamcy of the record. As LDS we have no basis to believe Nephi was biased against his brothers. Nor should we question Nephi’s account as we have no proof nor evidence that his record was flawed. To do so automatically denegrates him and is not right.

Nephi himself makes the claim that he knows his record to be true. This is coming from a man who by far as greater faith than anyone of us. He was a great man and we should revere him as such and defend his account as honest truth.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542625 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 15:36:02 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542625 I don’t see how that spreads “doubt and unbelief” in the least anymore than making similar claims about Joseph’s not always being careful who his acquaintances were does. But we’re just going around in circles at this point. To me the main issue is whether we can raise questions about the text to notice things we take for granted but don’t necessarily have evidence for.

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By: rob osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542624 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 14:41:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542624 Clark,
Its not me that believes Nephi wrote with a bias against his brothers. Remember, to have a bias means to be “unfair”. You believe Nephis record is biased (unfair) against his brothers. I believe that claim is unwarranted and one that spreads the seeds of doubt and unbelief. In that context, as an LDS, that denigrating Nephi.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542622 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 03:56:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542622 Rob, I’m starting to get the feeling you’re not reading what I’m saying. The reason we got the Book of Mormon where much of it is a combination of interpretations of Isaiah and narrative of flawed people is because we learn more that way than we do black and white legal pronouncements. (Not that the D&C is fully like that – but it’s closer than the Book of Mormon) So it’s Nephi’s humanness that makes the book great and relevant. Speaking only for myself, as inspired as I am by the New Testament reading about how a perfect man acted perfectly is less inspiring than reading how a flawed person got things done.

To your second point, as predicted, what you want to focus on is the answers. However as I said, we by God’s intention don’t have a god’s eye view of what happened with Nephi. We only have Nephi’s views. There are reasons to think he is biased in how he presents things. That’s the point – not that we have full answers but that by questioning we can better understand what is unclear.

Finally, to accuse me of denigrating the prophets seems a bit much. As I’ve said repeatedly I find Nephi and Joseph great because despite being flawed people, they trusted in the Lord and even in hardship made it through. That’s not denigrating them. That’s praising them. My problem is that you see any recognition of their weakness as denigration and thus the only view you’ll accept is a twisted idealized version which simply isn’t them anymore. That’s fine if that’s what you need. To me though that’s denigrating them because you have to transform them into something else.

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By: David Day https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542620 Sat, 09 Sep 2017 22:53:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542620 James, are you still reading Hardy’s reader’s edition? You ask about verse 11 and he notes in the reader’s edition that the reference is uncertain. If Hardy thinks its uncertain we are unlikely to be able to identify it. My guess is that its on the Brass Plates but not in the OT.

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By: David Day https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542619 Sat, 09 Sep 2017 22:48:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542619 Thanks for starting this series up again. I enjoy it and am trying to read the BoMor along with it.

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By: rob osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542618 Sat, 09 Sep 2017 00:48:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542618 When one looks at the definition of “bias” its about showing unfair choice of one over another. So I ask- how was Nephi unfair to his brothers Laman and Lemual? In reality its Laman and Lemual that are unfair to Nephi not the other wau around.
These seeds of doubt people plant are dangerous. If one thinks Nephi was biased and not true, then perhaps Nephi was corrupt, Perhaps then his tecord was corrupt. And if his record is corrupt then certainly other BoM prophets were also corrupt. Perhaps Joseph Smith was corrupt and his religion he started is corrupt. It never stops… and all because of one small seed of doubt, unwarranted at that!
Theres no doubt that Laman and Lemual felt like Nephi shouldnt be ruler over them. Theres no doubt they feel like Nephi slighted them. Theres no doubt that in their minds they felt justified in wanting to kill Nephi. But were their feelings properly justified in the eyes of God? No. But thats the typical way of wickedness. I dont know how Nephi could more easily explain the way of righteousness and wickedness than to tell the tale of the real events of his family and their dealings.
Nephi has a lot to say about how both righteousness and wickedness works- how cunning and deceptive its secret plans are on the one hand or how simple and peaceful it is on the other. Not only his account but all the BoM prophets reveal exactly how righteousness and wickedness works.

Even Nephi speaks of the evils of sin and temptation and the constant need to pray and seek forgiveness, and this from his own dealings. He speaks of faith, of constant searching the scriptures and seeking to know Gods will. On the other hand he tells the tale of those who refuse to put forth the necessary effort to be constantly nourished. It thus bothers me when I see people choosing to make unwarranted claims against Nephi and take Lamans side to perhaps think he was truly justified. I see these types as those who couldnt hold on to the rod of iron firmly enough, yet made it to the tree, tasted its fruit but then were ashamed and turned away.

Nephi and his record stands as a testimony against all those who seek to denigrate Gods holy prophets.

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By: rob osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542617 Fri, 08 Sep 2017 23:10:11 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542617 Clark,
And yet, why is it that it is the Book of Mormon is our cornerstone and not the D&C?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542616 Fri, 08 Sep 2017 21:08:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542616 Rob, that last line is logically akin to saying, “have you stopped beating your wife.” Your question assumes a false precondition. The reality is that I think Nephi is a remarkable person. If anything, I think him more not less remarkable than you since I think he managed to accomplish the things he deed while being weaker and more human than you portray him. He is far more deserving of praise because of what he overcame for me.

To the thrust of your question, who is more remarkable? Nephi or Joseph Smith? In Joseph Smith’s history I can find many people like Laman and Lemuel. Now in Joseph’s religious writings, does he represent fairly people like William Law, Thomas Marsh, or Oliver Cowdery given what we know with our broader historical evidence. Now that’s for a person I think greater than Nephi. How should that affect how we read Nephi’s descriptions of people he had conflicts with?

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By: rob osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542615 Fri, 08 Sep 2017 19:05:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542615 Clark,
Laman and Lemual are constantly at odds with Nephi. Laman and Lemual lack faith and obedience and constantly complain. Im going to make an analogy here with my brother whom I look up to and see him as Nephi. My brother (name witheld) is the bishop in my ward. But he is definitely not your normal bishop. Besides his managerial job for a fortune 500 company he finds time to go out and serve his neighbors with almost all of his extra time. Just a quick rundown of some of the things he has done in the past few months- Built two porches for an elderly lady, restructured a caving in roof at a low income housing apartment and also installed a partition between garages and put up a barn door, helped 3 people move, got burned trying to put out a fire that someone started and got out of control, took youth to climb a mountain, took youth down river in a boat for fishing, oversaw a scout eagle project, helped neighbors move cars with his trailer, invited the youth over for several bbq’s, helped negotiate solutions for a failing business, helped fix a neighbors plumbing, moved several fridges for neighbors, spent his own money to help several poor people, in process of the merging of two wards with releases and callings, gave countless blessings at all hours of the day and night, etc…

He is by far no ordinary man or bishop. He is more like an apostle- a prophet like Nephi. The people love him and the obedient follow his counsel. If we lived in Nephis time he would be similar to Nephi. Extraordinary men do exist, Nephi was an extraordinary man. And on the other hand, in our own ward we have the typical Laman and Lemuals who no matter how much you serve them never really help back but are just continually antagonistic towards the church. They continue to lie, cheat, steal, break the law and yet at times listen a little bit and do whats right for a moment and then back to the same old thing. Even Nephi, from time to time, gained hope in Laman and Lemual but it was in vain as they both quickly returned to their wicked lifestyles. Nephi was no lazy man. Just like my brother, there was always something to do, someone to help, someone to serve.
Why is it hard for you to see Nephi as an extraordinary man who loved and served his people so much they called themselves after his name for a thousand years?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/reading-nephi-151-11-part-i/#comment-542614 Fri, 08 Sep 2017 16:46:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37104#comment-542614 Rob, nearly every one of James posts has discussed this and frequently you’ve comment on them. So I suspect you’re being a bit disingenuous here. My guess is that you’re playing a rhetorical trick and want absolute proof that Nephi was misrepresenting things – which since there’s only one account is impossible. However if you read through the posts in this series I think pretty compelling arguments have been made regarding bias.

But for an example, how does Nephi represent Laman and Lemuel’s concerns about leaving Jerusalem. Given what we know of human nature, should we assume Nephi’s picture is a complete one? Dealing with 2 Nephi 5, did Laman and Lemuel have a point about worrying about Nephi ruling over them given that he becomes a king? Again, given what Nephi presents of the story, how does that undermine in portrayal of Laman and Lemuel. Most of the things they feared seem to have happened.

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