Comments on: Book Review: That We May Be One: A Gay Mormon’s Perspective On Faith and Family https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: D. Rolling Kearney https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542855 Fri, 20 Oct 2017 06:53:08 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542855 A few years ago I authored a post for the Mormon Chronicle, entitled “Homosexuality and the Gospel: A Scriptural Refutation of Modern Propaganda.” You can find it here:

https://www.mormonchronicle.com/homosexuality-and-the-gospel-a-scriptural-refutation-of-modern-propaganda/

A correct understanding of the scriptures should precede any commentary on this issue, whether or not one’s brother is a General Authority. Judging by most of the comments on this page, few people have turned to the scriptures to seek guidance on this issue, yet we know that the Lord does not give new revelation on issues that He has already addressed elsewhere. I have many more things to say on this issue, but they have basically all been said in the article. I hope you will read it.

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By: Bruce F. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542852 Thu, 19 Oct 2017 23:37:34 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542852 I have often wondered if those called to guide the church are called because of specific experiences they have had, and because of those experiences we as a church will hear them as they speak on those topics. One Apostle has identified himself as having personal experience in surviving depression, and we listen to him a little harder on the topic because we know he’s been there. I cannot help but think that we might listen to Elder Christofferson a little more carefully, should he ever speak on this topic. It makes me wonder how many conference addresses are a result of their personal life experiences.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542820 Mon, 16 Oct 2017 19:26:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542820 I think the main issue was that Colorado and Utah were similar, suggesting the cause is environmental rather than ideological (since Colorado is much more liberal than Utah and with far, far fewer Mormons). I can’t recall if FAIR mentioned it, but I suspect this is tied to the relationship of altitude to depression and suicide. A secondary factor is that both states have lots of rural areas and that also correlates strongly with suicide due to loneliness (although moreso with middle aged white men rather than youth) As for the increase in suicides starting around 2012 there are lots of thoughts as to why. It is happening in many more places than just Utah. Some think tensions from the recession were affecting it (although one could ask why the 4 year delay) while others ascribe it to social media and ubiquity of mobile devices.

But I agree with your larger point that we need more detailed data to draw conclusions.

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By: John Mansfield https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542817 Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:56:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542817 Clark, the data in that FAIR post is mostly state youth suicide counts without any breakdown into subgroups. Down in the comments there is a link to a CDC summary which links to a report: “Sexual Identity, Sex of Sexual Contacts, and Health-Related Behaviors Among Students in Grades 9–12 — United States and Selected Sites, 2015” That report has no data regarding suicide. It only deals with self-reported thoughts, plans and atttempts. Suicide attempt is an unhealthy behavior in its own right, but the connection between suicide attempts and actual deaths is very weak. The suicide rate for 15- to 19-year-olds in 2015 was 9.76 per 100,000 in the WISQARS database, but the report linked above says 8.6% of youth attempted suicide during the 12 months before the survey. That’s 880 youth who attempted suicide for every one that died. Suicide attempts are a common phenomenon; suicides are rare and not even usefully predicted by attempts.
The CDC report has 29.4% of homosexual youth attempting suicide compared to 6.4% of heterosexual youth. Does that 5:1 ratio also extend to completed suicides? Maybe, maybe not. The same tables indicate that the percentage of girls who attempted is almost twice the percentage for boys, yet boys who killed themselves outnumbered girls 3 to 1.
Even supposing that the suicide rate among homosexual youth is five times the heterosexual rate, in line with the ratio for attempts, and supposing that homosexual youth are 3% of all youth, they would still be only 13% of all suicides among their age group. No one can look at statewide suicide counts and discern anything from them about homosexuals.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542809 Mon, 16 Oct 2017 02:25:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542809 John, it’s worth reading FAIR’s recent post on the suicide rate. I’ve not looked closely, but I do think confounding variables often aren’t carefully adjusted for.

Ted, there’s no doubt there are homophobic people who conflate the law of chastity into a fear or loathing of those who are gay. How many people do that I’m a bit more skeptic. But of course you don’t need many people doing it for people to encounter it. On the other hand there are many people who do love unconditionally as well. Part of the problem though is that some demand as love full acceptance of the act, which most members are not willing to do given their commitments to the law of chastity. I’d fully agree that we, as members, still struggle here and still could definitely do a better job. But I also think, as past discussions here have attested, there’s a certain unbridgeable gulf as well between expectations.

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By: Ted B https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542801 Sat, 14 Oct 2017 03:51:58 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542801 Go on the ex-Mormon subreddit. You’ll read story after story from LGTBQs talking of the hardship and distress that they have faced because of Mormon culture. Any notion that Mormon culture and the Mormon leadership is somehow loving and accepting toward LGBTQs is pure unadulterated nonsense. Beneath the veneer of tolerance and love hides a thick underbelly of homophobia.

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By: John Mansfield https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542800 Fri, 13 Oct 2017 20:34:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542800 The Utah suicide counts in the 15- to 19-year-old bracket for the years 1999 through 2014 were 27, 27, 26, 27, 28, 27, 18, 22, 23, 25, 26, 26, 24, 37, 36, and 55; a total of 428 over those 16 years. How many of those 428 are thought to have been homosexuals? It is hard to understand the model that people are using when they look at a statistic involving an entire population and try to tease out matters involving a small subset of that population, but it is one that is being gestured at repeatedly. Why was there a large increase in youth suicide in Utah in 2012? Whatever it was wouldn’t be something stressing only a few percent of youth, unless the response to that stress multiplied suicides among that subgroup by a couple orders of magnitude.

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By: Ted B https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542798 Fri, 13 Oct 2017 00:12:04 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542798 There is no doubt a part of the LDS leadership and membership hates being called homophobic. But at the same time, they drive policies that can simply not be aptly described without using the word homophobic. They want so desperately for the LDS church not to be blamed for indirectly driving LGBTQ youths to suicide. But why is the teen suicide rate the highest in Utah? It can’t be altitude since Colorado and New Mexico have lower suicide rates with similar altitudes.

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By: Aaron K. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542797 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 20:06:18 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542797 I wonder how many gays listened to Jesus as he delivered his Sermon on the Mount.

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By: p https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542780 Tue, 10 Oct 2017 02:33:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542780 “The policy is intended to prevent dissonance from harming children’s emotions and reduce or prevent enmity between the two.”

Are we talking about the same “policy” here? – b/c I have no idea what you’re talking about.

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By: Cameron N https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542773 Mon, 09 Oct 2017 02:50:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542773 Johnny, you’re seeing what you want to see. The policy is intended to prevent dissonance from harming children’s emotions and reduce or prevent enmity between the two. Individuals may look down, but the church does not, nor do its leaders. The church didn’t publish the book–Tom did. It seems clear he did it out of personal motivation, not that he was approached by anyone. The church is a group of millions of people. Many members still have much improvement in this area, but from my standpoint things have improved quite a bit over the past 10 years, and will continue to do so.

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By: Johnny https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542771 Sun, 08 Oct 2017 15:57:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542771 Julie:

I think it is nice that this book was published by Deseret Book. However, how does this square with the separating policies of the church concerning LGTBQ couples and their children? Also, the church still looks down on these individuals as sinful and clearly less than. E. Oaks validated these policies and attitudes recently in Conference. So, publishing the book seems to be more about the church wanting to be seen as “lovingly” and condescendingly putting the LGTBQ community on restriction. The church still “loves” these poor wretched souls that are still lost. It puts out its hand but still has the other hand clenched in a fist.

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By: Suzanne Neilsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542768 Sat, 07 Oct 2017 07:04:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542768 Amen, rogerdhansen, Amen.
And that is as charitable as i can be.

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By: Mortimer https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542756 Wed, 04 Oct 2017 18:09:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542756 I haven’t been able to read the book yet, but I’ve listened to Tom’s podcast on Mormon Matters and read several reviews online. I’m struck by how logical, thoughtful and disciplined Tom is when he makes life decisions. It reminds me a lot of Todd. I think both men are exceptional in that way.

As much as I like many of the themes in his book and appreciate the caveat he repeatedly gives that he does not advocate his path for others (leaving a partner/spouse, etc.), I can’t help but be annoyed at the fact that this is more of a white-washed faith-promoting story as opposed to a true memoir. His is a rose-colored story of finding opportunities and of being quite blessed and frankly, lucky. I think it would have been more valuable if he had drawn out more of the pain, more of the ostracism and experienced more of a typical response from neighbors, PH leaders and ward members. More realistic struggles would have made the narrative more relatable. I wonder whether having a close GA relative makes a difference in his life experience. Who’s going to throw darts at a GA’s brother? I don’t think that he is the “norm” and additionally, I think he has high emotional intelligence and looks past the pain to focus on the goal. He didn’t “go dark” in his book by describing the psychological/social torture in vivid detail. He instead focused on the “helpers” in his life, the outcome, and the steps he took to get there. Ok. Fair enough, but the epic looses value without the trauma. The end result of this approach is yet another super positive example held up to the saints that many/most are not capable of obtaining. If people find solace, inspiration, and value to it, then great, but I think that it lacks the emotional vulnerability to help LGBT people who have been far less fortunate in our midst. Maybe another way of saying all this is a guy talking matter-of-factly instead of someone writing with their heart on their sleeve. His action and intent were extremely vulnerable and admirable, but I’m not convinced that his writing or narrative is.

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By: p https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/book-review-that-we-may-be-one-a-gay-mormons-perspective-on-faith-and-family/#comment-542751 Mon, 02 Oct 2017 22:10:26 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37276#comment-542751 Bro Williams, that’s one of the more extraordinary comments I’ve ever read on any Mormon blog & miles off the approved talking points of the official LDS script. As you correctly imply, the Brethren, and in particular our current expert, Dallin Oaks, do not consider same-sex relationships fully human, and so disparage these at every turn, despite ample evidence to the contrary that a one-size-fits-all approach is harmful. FYI there are many in the straight camp who deplore this abject lunacy and the damage it does to individuals and our beloved church.

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