Comments on: Thoughts on Vulnerability (in the wake of Charlottesville) https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: MH https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542463 Wed, 16 Aug 2017 17:43:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542463 Sid Sharma: What was the name of the researcher you worked for? Any publications? Sounds like interesting stuff.

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By: Michelle Lee https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542456 Mon, 14 Aug 2017 22:31:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542456 Jerry Schmidt: Never fear! I have a deep and abiding love for superhero movies. Love the Dr. Strange reference! :)

David Evans & James Olson: Yeah, I wrestle with that tension too. I have no good answers, and those issues were very relevant in the case I reference here (though I didn’t feel like I could go into too much detail). Sometimes “banishment” (whatever that looks like) really is the only option, if an individual is genuinely dangerous to others. And it’s probably important for me to clarify that I’m also speaking from the perspective of being the person that individuals such as this end up getting “banished” to, so my role is a bit unique that way. I wouldn’t hold myself up as an example on how everyone should necessarily treat situations like this, because it’s my actual job. :) In any case, I think your questions are important, and I wish I had better answers.

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By: Marc https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542455 Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:44:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542455 Excellent points James and David. This brings to mind another story from several years ago. Former DC South mission president Mark Albright, who periodically publishes “Missionary Moments” in Meridian Magazine, circulated to his e-mail list the conversion story of William E. Davidson, also known as Bill Riccio, a man whom the Southern Poverty Law Center has characterized as “a former Klan leader-turned-godfather of the neo-Nazi skinhead movement in the Deep South.” Davidson, who was reportedly baptized in Alabama in 2009, had shared his conversion story with Albright for possible publication in Meridian, recounting his troubled past with the white supremacist movement, introduction to the Church, and the long process he went through to get baptized, before bearing his testimony of the restored gospel. However, this prompted e-mail discussions about the appropriateness of publishing the conversion account, given the prominent role Davidson had once played in the white supremacist movement and the continuing effect that his prior actions may still be having. My understanding is that Meridian ultimately opted against publishing the account (in fact, I can find no mention of Davidson’s conversion to Mormonism anywhere online).

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By: David Evans https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542454 Mon, 14 Aug 2017 19:17:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542454 Big +1 on James’s comment above.

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By: David Evans https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542453 Mon, 14 Aug 2017 19:13:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542453 Thank you for this post. It brings important nuance to this conversation. Love and kindness, always, but I also think it’s important to balance love and kindness for one set of complex stories with love and kindness for another. When people come out of difficult circumstances and go on to take actions that are deeply harmful to others — as in, intimidating people of color through White Nationalist activities — I believe our first obligation is to the intimidated. If we can offer love and kindness to the intimidated while also offering understanding to troubled “intimidators,” all the better.

I worry sometimes that expressions of understanding of the intimidators can come across as insufficient support for the intimidated. I’m not sure how to balance those in public discourse.

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542452 Mon, 14 Aug 2017 19:05:20 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542452 Compelling thoughts. It’s not the focus of your post, but I appreciated most the modeling you offer on how to confront racism while acknowledging the humanity of the racist. At the same time, I wonder how I could possibly respond in the same way given that my daughters are black. We live in a very cosmopolitan part of Virginia, and yet explicit racism is a reality in their school. The direct harm caused by those who embrace and perpetuate these ideologies is hard to overlook in any real or imagined confrontation. As the cosmology you cite runs, God’s ultimate reaction was to banish Lucifer. (Marc, would Matthew have invited Derek if Derek had directly attacked him or others he loved? In that scenario, what would the grace-ful thing to do have been?) We’re in a different position here on earth, and our cosmological also insists that every hate-filled ism-monger we confront is fundamentally like us and have used their agency to elect good—like us. But the here and now harm involved complicates the picture and makes it harder to determine the proper reaction. In the case you describe, the Javert you counseled didn’t ultimately stay his hand from harming.

Also, like you, I find the fact that our Cosmology eschews happily ever after (as well as happy-once-upon-a-time), and instead gives us an eternity of wrestling with pain and loss in the midsts of exaltation to be one of its most bracingly true and empowering aspects.

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By: Sid Sharma https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542451 Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:06:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542451 When an undergrad in college, I worked as a research asst. with a post-doc who was looking into right-wing, extremist, anti-govt. movements. Mind you it was just a year or two after the OKlhoma City bombing. Here in Michigan, of course, we had the Michigan Militia, led by Mark, a guy fromone of the Wards in our Stake. With the Prof., we went and visited all the local groups and even went and interviewed white supremacists and neo-nazis all over the State, in Hayden Lake, ID, in Arkansas and Missouri etc. I am not a trained therapist, but my observations about the people were somewhat similar to the client that Michelle mentions. Many of the real “macho” guys seemed to be the result of real poor family upbringing, from real unhappy family backgrounds, with plenty of physical and sexual abuse. Many seemed to latch on to neo-Nazi, or white supremacist ideas fervently believing that these ideas would solve their underlying psychological problems. Similarly, they identified with the Churches that seemed to support their political and social ideas, they were members of “Christian Identity” churches. I dont have any solutions, but, I think that people like Michelle, with their professional training in the field of Mental Health can do much to help heal a lot of the men( and a few women) who end up being members of these right-wing extremist groups.

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By: Jerry Schmidt https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542449 Mon, 14 Aug 2017 03:38:03 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542449 I don’t intend in any way to make light of your post, quite the opposite. Your post helped me understand the motivation of the villain in the latest Marvel comic movie featuring Dr. Strange.

The villain is a former ‘disciple ‘ who was seduced by a demon who promised the end of death and suffering. I realize it wasn’t the promise in and of itself that was the sinister twist. The twist was that the promise was a lie, and assimilation into the demon was the actual fulfillment of the ‘promise ‘ which was not obvious to this lost group of disciples until it was too late.

Pain and loss happen, with no particular will behind the events. This universe is complicated with lots of players, human and non-human, many not even organic. Collision is inevitable, change will occur, following cycles sometimes, happening randomly at other times.

God’s best service to us is not preventing these events, but helping us bounce back from them. The universal gift of the atonement from Jesus the Christ is resurrection for all. But dearh comes first. And the ultimate gift, exaltation, comes after we wade through opposition and surrender our own weaknesses. We are not intended to be the same people returning to Heavenly Father that we were when we left.

Our return is not as children, but as adults, ready for the responsibilities that God shoulders.

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By: Marc https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/thoughts-on-vulnerability-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville/#comment-542448 Mon, 14 Aug 2017 03:37:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37089#comment-542448 Beautiful post. It brought to mind a powerful article I read in the Washington Post last fall: The white flight of Derek Black. Though, that story appears, at least thus far, to have a much happier ending.

In thinking about the “complicated stories” and “vulnerability” you mention, I couldn’t help but think of the young men in the article who, knowing what they knew about Derek, chose to invite him to their weekly Shabbat dinners anyway — a step that would end up changing the whole course of Derek’s life:

Matthew Stevenson had started hosting weekly Shabbat dinners at his campus apartment shortly after enrolling in New College in 2010. He was the only Orthodox Jew at a school with little Jewish infrastructure, so he began cooking for a small group of students at his apartment each Friday night. Matthew always drank from a kiddush cup and said the traditional prayers, but most of his guests were Christian, atheist, black or Hispanic — anyone open-minded enough to listen to a few blessings in Hebrew. Now, in the fall of 2011, Matthew invited Derek to join them.

Matthew had spent a few weeks debating whether it was a good idea. He and Derek had lived near each other in the dorm, but they hadn’t spoken since Derek was exposed on the forum. Matthew, who almost always wore a yarmulke, had experienced enough anti-Semitism in his life to be familiar with the KKK, David Duke and Stormfront. He went back and read some of Derek’s posts on the site from 2007 and 2008: “Jews are NOT white.” “Jews worm their way into power over our society.” “They must go.”

Matthew decided his best chance to affect Derek’s thinking was not to ignore him or confront him, but simply to include him. “Maybe he’d never spent time with a Jewish person before,” Matthew remembered thinking.

It was the only social invitation Derek had received since returning to campus, so he agreed to go. The Shabbat meals had sometimes included eight or 10 students, but this time only a few showed up. “Let’s try to treat him like anyone else,” Matthew remembered instructing them.

Derek arrived with a bottle of wine. Nobody mentioned white nationalism or the forum, out of respect for Matthew. Derek was quiet and polite, and he came back the next week and then the next, until after a few months, nobody felt all that threatened, and the Shabbat group grew back to its original size….

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