Comments on: Mormon Doctrine for Grown-ups: A Review of Terryl Givens’s Wrestling the Angel https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542270 Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:59:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542270 David, that’s a good point about complexity. People want simple answers that never get questioned. One thing I’ve noticed is how many critics are people who had a fairly “fundamentalist” mindset towards religion. Further, even now that they are critical of the Church they think that the only real religion that could possibly make sense is a “fundamentalist” one where answers are short, simple, clear, and epistemologically certain. Not everyone is like that mind you. I think that mindset is a big problem. Books like Givens as well as Jim Faulconer’s “made harder” series push in the opposite direction. I’m not sure how popular they are with the masses who really desire something more like McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine.

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By: David Evans https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542245 Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:36:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542245 Dave: That’s a very good point on the difference between General Authority authorship versus scholar authorship. I think the fact that McConkie went on to become an apostle lent more credence to the book.

Furthermore, what I like about the Givens book is part of what makes it less attractive to a broad readership: It complicates rather than simplifies. And while I think that’s consistent with reality, it “costs” more in terms of effort.

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By: Dominick https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542148 Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:54:02 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542148 I was showing this book to a pair of missionaries we had over for dinner last night – they had picked it off my shelf and I commended it to them. I haven’t read it for a couple of years but have enjoyed having a flick through this morning after reading this review and seeing what parts I’d highlighted.

I’m excited that the second volume comes out in the UK in a couple of weeks – I think that’ll give a good balance as it’ll provide a look into the practices of the church and how they emerge out of the doctrine. The doctrine and practices are the two sides of the same coin.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542147 Tue, 18 Jul 2017 15:22:06 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542147 I think the effect of McConkie’s writings made them a bit gun shy. But there’s also been a change of focus starting in the 90’s to more practical concerns I’ve noticed rather than abstract ideas. Don’t get me wrong. I love abstract ideas. Probably too much. But a big part of me appreciates that more practical concern even from GAs who could be writing a doctrinal treatise. (Say Elder Oaks)

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By: Dave B. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542146 Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:14:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542146 Nice post, David.

Another difference is that Mormon Doctrine was authored by a General Authority, which gave the book a sort of implicit official approval (despite the fact that behind the scenes the senior leadership had given it an actual stamp of UNapproval, which was never communicated to the general membership). Nothing by Givens or Bushman or any other LDS scholar is going to garner that level of respect among the membership, regardless of how helpful or productive the doctrinal discussion is.

And since no GA presently writes books that seriously discuss LDS doctrine, there is very little mainstream discussion of serious LDS doctrine. It’s like the whole Church curriculum is an extended Gospel Essentials class. Thank you, Correlation.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542144 Tue, 18 Jul 2017 06:02:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542144 I’ve not read Feeding the Flock yet. I’ll have to check it out.

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542143 Tue, 18 Jul 2017 00:17:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542143 All: I found Feeding the Flock, the second volume of this history of Mormon Theology to be ever more compelling. For what its worth. In a normal year, it would be a front-runner for my LDS book of the year (but this year we have A House Full of Females). That means this year is awesome!

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By: David Evans https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542142 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:23:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542142 Brent: Thank you! Another good example is John Turner’s excellent The Mormon Jesus, which traces doctrinal development specifically around the Savior. http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/06/whom-say-ye-that-i-am-a-review-of-john-turners-mormon-jesus/

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By: David Evans https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542141 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:21:32 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542141 Wally: Thanks for your comment! I see your point, but I also have difficulty imagining another way that “line upon line” could work in practice. Church’s have to function, so — as Clark says — people fill in gaps, and new revelation can correct those fill-ins. I know that can feel unsatisfying, but in the absence of a Church operated directly by a resurrected Savior residing here on earth, I have trouble imagining another way.

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By: Brent Searle https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542140 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:19:02 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542140 Appears to build on “This is My Doctrine,” another great book that reveals revelation in context and changing over time.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542139 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:13:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542139 One thing theology teaches us is that when vague information is given people attempt to fill in the blanks. Sometimes what are theories or conjecture takes a life of its own. So revelation is also to fix the “false traditions of the fathers” we sometimes fall into. I know some see that as a weakness, but to me it’s a strength. I’d note that it loosely means we follow the trajectory science uses as well. (Even if the underlying methodology clearly is different)

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By: Wally https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542138 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:06:16 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542138 The line-upon-line method of revelation doesn’t seem to account for the fact that some later revelations contradict earlier ones. So sometimes it’s not line upon line. It’s more like trial and error.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542137 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:05:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542137 I was surprised how good Givens book was. While it doesn’t necessarily delve into a more philosophical view of the theology the way McMurrin purports to, it’s so vastly better that I hope no one recommends McMurrin again. What’s amazing about Givens is that he manages to write in a way that conveys a ton of information in a short space but can be read by people without much exposure to formal theological ideas. It really is a fantastic book.

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By: Olga Van Looveren https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542134 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 12:59:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542134 From Pres. Uchtdorf “… the Restoration is an ongoing process; we are living in it right now. It includes “all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal,” and the “many great and important things” that “He will yet reveal.”

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By: Daniel https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/mormon-doctrine-for-grown-ups-a-review-of-terryl-givenss-wrestling-the-angel/#comment-542131 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:42:00 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36976#comment-542131 “So if you want to believe that the doctrines taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don’t change, this book won’t help you. But if you are comfortable with the idea that gospel truths have been revealed “precept upon precept, line upon line …, here a little, there a little,” from long before the Restoration until today, then this book is for you. It also implicitly points us forward, as does the closing line of the ninth Article of Faith: ‘We believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.'”

How long must a Mormon believe each little precept before another precept is added to change the prior precept, and so on?

Revelation is an excuse to keep from being pinned down to anything specific, or a way to “correct” a long held disgusting belief such as allowing blacks to hold the priesthood to avoid adverse public pressure.

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