Comments on: Bad footnotes can be spiritually deadly https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542136 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:00:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542136 Steve S, which journals are you thinking of? There’s a lot on JSTOR and the main Mormon focused one, Journal of Mormon History, has all the issues through 2014 available for free at Utah State. http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/mormonhistory/vol40/iss4/ And recently the entire journal was put up on JSTOR http://www.jstor.org/journal/jmormhist

BYU Studies appears to be full open access now.

But it seems like more and more Mormon history is being published at the main non-Mormon journals and thus available via JSTOR and Muse.

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By: Frank Pellett https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542135 Mon, 17 Jul 2017 14:52:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542135 Is there a tolerance level for citations? It seems most of the problems come when a source turns out to be bad and a lot of work has been done based on that bad source. Maybe a way to help would be to request more diversity in sources, lowering the chance of one point ruining your entire work.

I think this problem (such as it is) will reduce as we get more information digitized. With information online, we should get to the point where the footnotes are links to original sources, so anyone can easily go back and forth at will.

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By: Steve S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542130 Sun, 16 Jul 2017 16:46:34 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542130 Yes, misquotation is a huge problem. But a large amount of literature published on matters related to Mormonism end up in journals that cannot be accessed without paying an exorbitant price or having access to a university library and/or university password which allows them access to these journals, so I have a hard time caring if this stuff is referenced well or not. The most important work on Mormon studies is made available online. Wikipedia articles on Mormonism inform people more about Mormonism than academic journals. Blogs and websites that cover Mormonism are far more influential not just on the general discourse but also intellectual discourse about it. The goal should no longer be about getting footnotes right for stuff that hardly anyone reads. The goal should be getting more primary source material up online in its original format so that blogs and websites can correctly reference it and provide a link for people to see. I see the traditional Mormon Studies where scholars publish in peer-reviewed academic journals as in decline. Scholars (meaning a select few people employed at a university) only publish in these journals as proof of academic contribution to keep their jobs. Another thing is that some of these academic articles published in professional journals are so arcane and difficult to understand that they couldn’t possibly have an impact on discourse. So I could care less whether these have the footnotes right. It’s all about the stuff published online.

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By: Tim https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542129 Sun, 16 Jul 2017 16:04:35 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542129 In law school, I spent considerable time double-checking the footnotes of law review articles that other people had written, prior to publication. Not only did I make sure that the formatting was correct, but I pulled up each individual primary source to make sure that it was actually cited correctly. Some of these I could find online; others I could find in the law library. Sometimes I had to make the long trek to the main university library to track down the specific book I needed so that I could verify it was quoted accurately.

Is there a process like this in, say, Mormon Studies?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542128 Sun, 16 Jul 2017 05:42:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542128 Jonathan, I’m not sure I buy that. I mean clearly that is the status quo but I think that’s primarily due to the culture itself. The cost is not that high and I think making something like ArXiv would be a much better use of NEH money than a lot it gets spent on. A side effect of the publishing problem is that of course the humanities have become more and more disconnected from regular culture. This in turn leads to more and more esoteric jargon and theories. But by and large, I think the humanities like this despite a cry or two here and there. That is, I’d lay good odds even if there was a general repository like there is for math and physics that there would be tremendous pressure not to use it.

As to scans, having been involved in that industry that’s just nonsense. I’m sure they said that but it’s just not true. I’ll lay good odds that most of that $100,000 was wages. But the technology to automate most of this this is there. Further that’s dealing with old text. I’m talking about new papers where you don’t need to scan at all merely save relatively small pdfs. Look at the typical JSTOR paper. Most are 100-300K in size. A paper with many illustrations is maybe 1MB-2MB. I can buy a 5 terabyte hard drive for $100. The software to distribute loads across servers is free and very mature. And that assumes you handle your own server rather than simply using AWS or a similar service. Again note that scihub for free hosts every JSTOR and Muse paper.

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By: Jonathan Green https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542127 Sun, 16 Jul 2017 03:48:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542127 Ardis, yes, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. I once ran into exactly the same kind of thing in grad school, except one of the scholars involved was Jacob Grimm.

Clark, since Mormon-related topics call squarely under the humanities, you can see the problem. Not much NSF funding for Mormon Studies. Humanities research is typically supported with little or no grant funding, and a lot of universities won’t have funding for page fees in the humanities. So the choice often comes down to publishing in a well-known, high-prestige traditional journal, or funding open-access publication in a low-prestige unknown journal out of your own pocket. As for expenses, not long ago the director of a major research library in Europe was showing off their digitalization program and mentioned that their server costs (for many high-resolution scans of primary sources) ran into the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.

MH, what an odd comment. Taking my a blog post as a guide to the health of Mormon Studies is completely misplaced, since I’m hardly involved in the field. This is a blog post reminding everyone to do their homework – so if you need examples, you’ll need to look through the archives or at the old FARMS reviews. While that’s a style of review I usually don’t care for, they knew how to dissect a footnote.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542126 Sun, 16 Jul 2017 00:34:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542126 MH, my problem is that all my books are in storage while my basement gets worked on. But if it’s any consolation I’ve got something I’m writing about a footnote that I might put here or try and submit to the interpreter.

But a good example of questionable footnotes might be Compton’s review of Nibley’s World of the Jaredites

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By: JoeInLaw https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542125 Sun, 16 Jul 2017 00:10:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542125 Well, from the comments here, MH, it seems as though no one here wants to give examples without doing the massive amount of work re-researching the works in question would take. And if they did give examples and were wrong, they might open themselves to liability in tort.

I do remember a post a while ago here or at Wheat and Tares or BCC (or somewhere – see me not citing anything ;) ) that have examples of bad footnotes in the Presidents of the Church series. Not academia, but interesting, and an example.

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By: MH https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542124 Sat, 15 Jul 2017 22:59:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542124 So the issue rankles people enough to blog about it (as it should), but not enough to cite examples of? While I respect such politeness, I take it as another sign that Mormon studies has a ways to go yet before arriving at it’s long-desired day in the mainstream academic sun.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542121 Sat, 15 Jul 2017 22:25:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542121 Jonathan: Open access sounds good, but it turns out that it’s extraordinarily expensive; someone has to pay for those servers, and page fees for good open-access journals run into the hundreds of dollars.

NSF grants typically pay for those rather easily. There are public repositories for the social sciences as well. It’s the humanities that are the big standout. The problem is more getting people to use them. Server costs these days are extremely cheap. That’s why there can be multiple pirate full mirrors of all the journals that Muse and JSTOR provide with free access.

Ardis, I was going to say just from your description I had a pretty good idea of the book — a major work on Mormonism in the 90’s where I’d looked up a bunch of the footnotes to find selective quotations that often were undermined by sentences mere inches away. However then I realized that is probably far more common than I want to believe. I suspect in the 90’s the sources were much harder to look up. Now that they are easy to look up a lot of works that still get regularly cited should be used with caution. (Like Jonathan I’m not sure I want to name names – especially not without first spending the time to relook up all the footnotes!)

James, thanks for that bit of history of ArXiv. I also agree with you on the danger of citing papers rather than original sources. Secondary cites are always dangerous.

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By: James Anglin https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542120 Sat, 15 Jul 2017 21:14:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542120 Footnotes are like banknotes. British bills still carry the written, “I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of X pounds,” and originally all paper currency was supposed to be redeemable in precious metal. In modern practice the banknotes themselves carry the value, to the point where we ask the price of gold in dollars instead of asking how much gold a dollar is worth. Gold bullion is a pain to lug around. The convenience of having paper bills themselves be legal tender is too hard to resist—at least as long as everyone agrees to it. It’s getting that way with footnotes. Instead of asking how good your cited sources are, we ask how many citations they have.

In ultimate principle a footnote should tell you where you can get your hands on the physical evidence to see for yourself, but scholars’ lives are so much easier if we all agree to accept the Wikipedia standard, by which anything published counts as authority, no matter how great an idiot the author was. If your subject is literary enough that its physical evidence actually consists of books, then tracking down the raw evidence may be easier than hiking to an archaeological dig, but reading original sources is still tedious. They’re usually way too long, and by the time they finally get around to coughing out the soundbite you want, they’ve probably surrounded it with so much weird old-fashioned context that it doesn’t really mean anything like what it sounds like. It’s much handier to treat the citations themselves as authoritative, regardless of what the cited sources actually say. As long as everyone agrees to play like this, we can all have wonderful scholarly debates with a whole lot less trouble.

[I do not want the gold standard for money. Clark, ArXiv moved from Los Alamos to Cornell with Paul Ginsparg.]

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By: Ardis E. Parshall https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542119 Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:39:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542119 Okay, so here’s an anonymized actual case that probably illustrates the problem:

I worked with someone a year or three ago who *did* want to track everything back to the source, rather than merely repeating the citations that appeared in earlier studies of the topic (say, 6 or 8 earlier studies). What we found included: (1) an error in the citation of the first historian to refer to one event … with the erroneous citation repeated in every subsequent study, indicating that every last one of them had merely quoted the first author as if they had actually seen the original, when they had not. (2) An error in the citation of the second historian to refer to another event … with some of the later scholars reproducing the error, while others reproduced the original citation. No way to know if those who repeated the original citation had actually seen it, but certainly the ones repeating the erroneous citation had not. (3) A very important document was correctly cited by the first and all subsequent historians … but when my man went back to the original document, he discovered an unnoticed, not previously reported, highly significant bit of data appearing in another paragraph on the same page, which had been overlooked or unrecognized by the original historian, and which, apparently, nobody else had seen because presumably they hadn’t looked again at the original.

Does that fit what you’re faulting? It’s primary rather than secondary sources, but I hope it still fits.

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By: Jonathan Green https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542118 Sat, 15 Jul 2017 17:40:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542118 Thanks for the comments and discussion. Oddly enough, I don’t feel like denouncing respected, award-winning scholars as horrible footnote writers in a casual blog post. Some other time, perhaps?

And again the problem is not with things (rumor, blog posts, conference addresses) that don’t typically present themselves as academic works with scholarly apparatuses; each makes its own kind of claim and requires its own kind of analysis. The problem is with relatively recent peer reviewed books from reputable presses and articles published in respected journals, formatted according to proper Chicago style and strewn with things that look, at a glance, like footnotes. I’m heartened by Wally’s comment that people do sometimes double-check the footnotes, but sometimes things slip through – both on the apologetic and the antagonistic side, and from established scholars and amateur outsiders.

I’m sure I’ve done the same kind of thing before. It’s difficult and time-consuming to trace every well-known fact back to its source, so you just throw in a reference to a page in a recent article that says the same thing, and no one thinks twice about it. Then later you start poking around in the place where the well-known fact was first stated, and it’s not nearly as clear-cut as everyone has been treating it. You’re more cautious the next time around.

It should be getting easier to track down sources, and in some ways it is. We have unprecedented ease of access…to 19th-century (and earlier) books and journals, thanks to Google Books. Everything later than that is hit and miss, mostly miss, due to copyright laws intended to help Disney being equally applied to Archiv für niederrheinische Kirchengeschichte (3. Reihe) 37 (1921). Open access sounds good, but it turns out that it’s extraordinarily expensive; someone has to pay for those servers, and page fees for good open-access journals run into the hundreds of dollars. So advancements in scholarship end up behind commercial paywalls instead. I do think university libraries should try to accommodate community members, but it’s hard to make the case that the university should pay, say, $10,000 more per year for a license that is not strictly limited to faculty, staff, and students. I wish I had a solution.

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By: Bro. Jones https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542117 Sat, 15 Jul 2017 03:16:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542117 Years ago I was glancing through an anti-Mormon tract that insisted numerous times, with footnotes, that certain language in the temple was “directly from Satanic worship services.” Intrigued, I thumbed over to the citations, and found at each footnote “Based on personal writings in the author’s possession.” Welp.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/bad-footnotes-can-be-spiritually-deadly/#comment-542114 Fri, 14 Jul 2017 22:28:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36965#comment-542114 Yeah, that’s possible, although I wonder what it means to be a student or faculty. There ought be some way for people doing independent research to do things. But I certainly agree the key culprit isn’t the HBLL but sites like JSTOR. Now JSTOR does have a public offering that they recently offered at $20 a month. So I should limit my complaints somewhat. That’s huge compared to what they used to offer which was ridiculously priced library plans. I think that’s due to pressure from things like scihub, much like back in the 90’s Napster drove the iTunes store as a legitimate alternative.

But of course JSTOR is just one of the databases that the typical university library offers. And it is, from what I can tell, the most progressive in terms of public access. Muse doesn’t have any public offerings that I can see for instance. However according to their FAQ, the Muse license applies to alumni but BYU doesn’t offer it to alumni that I can see.

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