Comments on: Some Thoughts on Nephite Baptism https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541380 Wed, 24 May 2017 21:29:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541380 I’m open to that possibility. Presumably Joseph was still learning how to translate and the 116 lost pages may have seemed somewhat more primitive in certain aspects of translation. But by and large it seems a common aspect of the translation was to simply quote KJV passages from Joseph’s mind to translate similar ideas. I suspect most of the variants that people find from the KJV are accidental. However in some cases perhaps there were important variants, such as in this quotation of Isaiah 48. (Even though this was done after initial publication)

However I don’t think theological sophistication which seems more conceptual rather than translational develops. I say that since from my perspective the most sophisticated parts theologically are Mosiah and the first half of Alma. While there are some sophisticated typology in 2 Nephi that seems a different issue.

While one could argue relative to baptism a development, the problem is that 2 Nephi baptism is less developed than what we see in Mosiah 18 onwards. Also if we’re going with the translation rather than composition model I’d not expect that to appear.

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By: Franklin https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541378 Wed, 24 May 2017 21:11:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541378 Thanks, Clark. Interesting ideas. Any thoughts on the notion that, theologically, the Book of Mormon progresses along a translation rather than a historical timeline? Meaning that since 2 Nephi was translated quite a while after Mosiah, it is more theologically advanced, even though it is historically prior? Could this explain why baptism is a nonissue for Benjamin, and why baptism is less developed for Alma than for Nephi?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541360 Wed, 24 May 2017 14:25:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541360 Jader, that’s exactly what I think happened. The question is that if he saw it, how would he interpret it symbolically and in terms of salvic theology. I think how we conceive of baptism is reasonably different from what was in Palestine even though clearly we’re highly influenced by the New Testament. So we see the symbolism of the death and rebirth. What’s interesting to me is that the Book of Mormon gives us additional symbolism of the exodus pattern, the emphasis of imitating Christ, and the strong emphasis of becoming his seed as we enter into the new covenant. Those last elements are in the New Testament but I think are given a stronger emphasis in the Book of Mormon.

To me the most interesting symbolism you don’t really find as strong in the New Testament (although elements are there) is the exodus pattern. That makes a lot of sense in terms of our particular understanding of the plan of salvation. We wander in the wilderness then baptism is the imitation of Christ that brings us to the promised land that is the kingdom of God.

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By: jader3rd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541357 Wed, 24 May 2017 00:25:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541357 If Nephi saw the baptism of Christ, in a physical sense, could he have started performing baptisms from that point on, not as how he learned them, but as how he saw John and Christ do it?
If you’re in a vision, and the heavenly messenger says “This is the baptism you’re supposed to be modeling” wouldn’t you change how you do it, to match the vision?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541356 Tue, 23 May 2017 20:36:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541356 Virginia, I tend to assume that the temple as Nephi saw it was fairly different in details from what we get with the second temple after the exile. Part of that is because there are already clear differences in early Nephite practice and post-exilic practice possibly tied to the rise of the Deuteronomist movement around the time of Josiah. A lot of that is speculative though and there’s no real consensus among scholars.

Some people have latched on to Margaret Barker’s ideas about the temple in the period around Jeremiah and Josiah. (Kevin Barney has written a fair bit using Barker) Barker tends to see the Deuteronomists as centralizing the religious cult so that only practice in Jerusalem was accepted. In the Old Testament you see some of that tension surviving the redactions in the post-exilic period when the canon was finalized. So the high places are condemned, in part because of their use in syncristic worship. Yet Lehi and Nephi have no trouble following the pattern of sacrifice in high places and other alters more akin to what you see with Abraham or Moses. Barker suspects that the divinine feminine in this period gets removed due to the connection with Baal worship. Yet most scholars assume that at some point in pre-exilic Israel the divine pantheon was much closer in similarity to the Canaanite pantheon with a heavenly mother. The removal of the high places outside of the centralized temple was often seen as tied to the divine mother. A few apologists have argued that these earlier traditions are present in the Book of Mormon in the form Nephi’s vision takes. A lot of the description of the Tree of Life as well as Mary have elements of the divine feminine in them.

As to the rites themselves, it’s hard to say what develops when. Most of the evidence we have is from after the exile when the various traditions are more solidified. The Book of Mormon doesn’t really specify much. The closes we get is Alma 12-14 but that’s really vague. We know that whatever is going on, that there’s an early tradition of imitating Christ. With Mosiah 15 we have something very similar to Merkebah literature such as in 3 Enoch. Yet obviously this is after 400 years of Nephite and Palestinian Jewish evolution. So what these Merkabah traditions (often tied to kingship and being made a priest) were like for Nephi isn’t clear. The emphasis for both Benjamin and Abinadi is taking Christ’s name in an apparently quasi-mystic and covenant fashion. Is that new among the Nephites or does it reflect something Lehi held? It’s hard to say. I’m going to touch upon a few speculations in my next post.

Your point about priests is worth commenting on too. The Deuteronomists, as I mention, centralize the cult in Jerusalem presumably elevating the place of the Levitical tribe. Lehi and Nephi clearly practice sacrifice independent of the Levitical priesthood. The question of how the Law of Moses was practiced without Levites is a traditional question of the Book of Mormon. There have been lots of speculations ranging from they brought a Levite with them to the old distinction between the Sons of Levi and the Sons of Moses having two rival priesthoods. In this case the Nephites take the Sons of Moses tradition that has only hints in the existing Old Testament as a rival priesthood. (Interesting the Sons of Moses make a reappearance in D&C 84) The paper “Priestly Lineages in History and Rhetoric” is worth reading on this.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541355 Tue, 23 May 2017 19:52:12 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541355 Oh whoops. That wasn’t ready to post. My apologies. I quickly finished it up. But I’d hoped to have an other day of rewrites. C’est la vie. I’ll have an other addition to it soon.

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By: lemuel https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541354 Tue, 23 May 2017 18:24:10 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541354 Good stuff. I wonder if baptism isn’t the covenant, but rather something that follows the covenant?

“Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye *have entered* into a covenant”

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By: Hedgehog https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541353 Tue, 23 May 2017 18:13:32 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541353 This is really interesting. I shall be pondering it for some time. Thank you.

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By: Northern Virginia https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/05/some-thoughts-on-nephite-baptism/#comment-541352 Tue, 23 May 2017 17:53:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36532#comment-541352 Clark, thanks for the interesting post. On a related note, do you have any speculation as to what Nephite temple rites were? Similar at all to the instructions found in the Torah or something different altogether?

I seem to recall (whether from a class or some instruction manual) that the assumption is that Nephi and his descendants officiated using the Melchizedek priesthood. Not sure how I feel about that assertion, but it’s interesting to contemplate New World non-Levite Israelites trying to replicate rites that they’ve never witnessed with instruction from a man who was 14 or 15 the last time he was in Jerusalem.

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