Comments on: The False Dichotomies of Membership https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541161 Tue, 09 May 2017 05:13:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541161 RW, I was primarily quoting how psychologists view it. That is how is it as science.

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By: RW https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541159 Sun, 07 May 2017 23:20:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541159 To be fair about Myers-Briggs. Myers did lots of research is developing her preference test. Note that it is a simple test for behavioral preferences. It was never meant as a serious diagnostic tool. It was meant as a way of understanding ourselves and others in a easy-to-understand way. In her development of the test she went to great lengths to find orthogonal, that is to say, independent, axes on which to base personality assessment.

Beyond that, because it is a preference test, people tend to exhibit those traits, generally, on an either/or basis. It is as if I am offered a choice between ice cream or cabbage. I will almost always choose ice cream. I am sure there are people who will almost always choose cabbage.

You are very dismissive of the MB personality profile. As one who has used this tool for a long time to help me understand personality and differences, I can definitely assure you that it is helpful and, for most normal people, accurate. What people misunderstand about this tool is that it is somehow predictive. It is not, it is just a test of preference, and for the 70% or 80% of the population which are “average”.

At one point in my career I did statistical modeling. The basis of statistical modeling is that there are only 3 or 4 variables which contribute to most, 80% or 90%, of the variability of the system. We were modeling a very complex manufacturing process. MB analysis basically does this with personality: most of the variability of us, as individuals, can be captured by just four variables, in this case the MB type indicators.

In the early 90’s I presented at the Sunstone Symposium in Washington, DC on this subject. I had many of my Church friends take the MB type indicator as they perceived the Church, and I reported on the outcome. Hands down, the Church came out STJ. There was a little uncertainty about whether it was I or E. For me this was a great comfort because my MB type is the exact opposite, NFP, which explained much of my discomfort level in the Church.

Just because the professionals cannot use the MB type indicator for diagnosis and treatment does not take away its power to explain social relationships. For example my spouse is a strong Introvert and I am a violent Extrovert, all other things the same. We get along fabulously except when the I/E axis is involved, It has helped us a lot to understand these things.

So, personally, I find the MB types, NF, NT, SF, and ST to be strong indicators of religious needs and requirements, substantially more than your dichotomy of two. But even if you take the two types, N and S, these generally map into your Liahonas and your Iron-Rodders.

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By: Q https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541156 Sun, 07 May 2017 21:47:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541156 I think the Iron Rod/Liahona dichotomy captures, or at least used to, an actual difference in tendencies among church-going LDS. When I first read the dichotomy, it helped me make sense out of Mormonism to a good degree and many others I have talked to accept this categorization and make sense out of the community. It isn’t a scientific categorization based on hard research, I’ll concede. Nonetheless, categorizing is part and parcel of the social sciences. It is important to at least try to identify trends in behavior and put them into categories. To say that Mormons are too complex to categorize just comes off as intellectually lazy. If you’re going to challenge common categorizations, you owe it to put forward alternative ways of categorizing Mormon society in relation to its attachments and attitudes to the LDS church institution. Or are you afraid that you might offend someone, or even worse that someone could point out a flaw in your categorization (oh the horror)? It is easy to sit on the sidelines and take potshots at ideas you don’t like. It is much harder to come up with a framework for understanding social trends in Mormonism.

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By: p https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541128 Sat, 22 Apr 2017 02:31:56 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541128 ChristianKimball your #3 signifying biological gradations of gender and sexuality, and thus of identity – yet another monkey wrench tossed into the heavenly machinery cranking out nothing but girls and boys. It won’t take long for something like this to percolate through LDS culture, w/ results I am not able to imagine,

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541125 Fri, 21 Apr 2017 21:39:03 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541125 Peter, while Jesus condemned many things Pharisees did, I don’t think he treated them like a category. They were a self-identifying group within Judaism. There was actually a pretty big divide among the Pharisees over zealotry (more or less meaning opposition to Rome with violence) Also Jesus quoted and followed many of the teachings of major figures in the Pharisaic tradition like Rabbi Gamaliel. There’s some hints Jesus was more tied to the Essenes – an other well known group at the time but oddly not mentioned in the NT.

It’s true people use pharisee as a kind of label, but I think that’s a bit different from a taxonomy. Especially today.

Larry, I really don’t like the active vs inactive distinction although I use it more than I should. For one there’s people who come to church but don’t believe and don’t keep the commandments and people who don’t go to church as much who do keep most of the commandments and believe.

Those who accept or reject callings I’m more willing to go to, although even there I’ll cut some people a break. Say if they have special needs kids or are pregnant and get asked to take on a big calling. Someone we know had major cancer surgery and just a month or two later was asked to be a handcart leader. She accepted it but I think it should never have been offered and she should have refused for her own health.

So maybe it’s not a dichotomy but the categories those who accept callings they could do, those who reject callings they could do, and those who accept callings they should know they can’t do.

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By: larryco_ https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541124 Fri, 21 Apr 2017 20:26:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541124 7 Other Divisions In Mormonism:
1) Actives vs. Inactives
2) 24/7 Mormons vs. 1 to 3 hours a week on Sunday Mormons
3) Temple-going vs.Temple-avoiding
4) Accept any calling vs. “I’ll get back to you…”
5) “Beyond a shadow of a doubt” vs. plenty of shadow in my doubt
6) Lime jello/shaved carrots and funeral potatoes vs.Crown double cheeseburger with fries
7) Extreme ultra-right conservatives vs. run-of-the-mill ultra-right conservatives

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By: christiankimball https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541123 Fri, 21 Apr 2017 16:44:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541123 I’m just coming to this, and do not intend these thoughts as responsive to any comments but only to the OP.
1. It seems to me that a dichotomy is almost always problematic. If there are only two options, most people can’t help but make one better or preferred or desirable. More labels than two have the potential of being useful. If described as a hierarchy (e.g., Maslow, Fowler) ranking is inevitable. But if described as a multiplicity of options or variables or ways of being, there is the possibility of usefulness.
2. The positive use of categories is improved when it is recognized that any one individual may be both/all/many, and when the discussion turns to balance rather than either/or.
3. Interestingly (to me), the most obvious dichotomy for many–male/female–is being challenged. From a recent article in Nature: “These discoveries have pointed to a complex process of sex determination, in which the identity of the gonad emerges from a contest between two opposing networks of gene activity. Changes in the activity or amounts of molecules (such as WNT4) in the networks can tip the balance towards or away from the sex seemingly spelled out by the chromosomes. “It has been, in a sense, a philosophical change in our way of looking at sex; that it’s a balance,” says Eric Vilain, a clinician and the director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology at the University of California, Los Angeles. “It’s more of a systems-biology view of the world of sex.”

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By: Peter https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541122 Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:57:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541122 I am finding the most useful and relevant categories to be ‘Christian’ and ‘Pharisee’ because Jesus personally had a lot to say about exactly what attributes each has so it is easy to be clear about exactly what the definitions are. They are very relevant to the internal conflicts in behaviour, strategies, leadership methods, ideas and expectations we all experience and disagree about in the Church. People can be a mixture of both but there is a helpful clarity using these definitions regarding which is clearly the ideal to aspire to and has Jesus’ approval.

D and C 58 regarding having permission from God to act creatively on inspiration, and grudgingly only doing what leaders tell you to being a path to damnation, and D and C 121, are very powerful anti- Pharisee scriptures which hold the key to getting this right and solving a lot of our problems with pharisaical reactionary traditionalist control freaks in
my opinion. We got taught that in Seminary as teenagers – the answers have been there all along and it is so sad how few have really understood or tried to lead in the Church following those liberating and empowering principles.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541121 Fri, 21 Apr 2017 04:41:16 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541121 P, I confess I’m not quite sure what you’re arguing. Packer certainly emphasized practical benefits over historical accuracy. While I respect him a great deal and think he was an important figure who did a great deal of good, I just can’t ultimately agree with him to the degree he pushed that idea. Of course having once had a security clearance and was working in Los Alamos on nuclear secrets I can appreciate the idea that not all truths should be shared in the open. While I disagree with say the Intersectionality groups who’ve come to dominate parts of campus regarding truth, I do think we have to worry about the consequences of what we say.

That is truth is not the only important thing when we communicate. We also have to worry about the effects of what we say. In that regard Pres. Packer was undoubtedly ahead of the curve relative to what both side of the political aisle now say.

As for Lacan, I fear he bought into Freud just a little too much. And of course even Freud noticed that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes saying cut it out just means cutting it out.

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By: p https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541118 Fri, 21 Apr 2017 01:07:18 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541118 Clark, we seek a unity of opposites as BKP achieved with his “so-called scholars and intellectuals” construction. Obviously, within LDS-world. “real” scholarship and intellectual endeavor is valued, standing in stark contrast with “so-called” which is a euphemism for “fake.” However, no matter how sound or fact-base this scholarship may be, if it’s not faith-promoting, it is only “so-called.” This way everybody loses, both the hard-working scholars & intellectuals who are either excoriated or ignored, and the membership, whose relationship with the fact-based world grows ever more tenuous. There is an awful symmetry here that I, for one, find beautiful. Allow me to elucidate with a quote from Lacan: Castration means that that jouissance has to be refused in order to be attained on the inverse scale of the Law of desire.

Amen

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By: jader3rd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541116 Thu, 20 Apr 2017 19:56:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541116 I think it’s dangerous to put someone in one category, and then never expect them to leave that category. Perhaps people grow when spending some time as a Liahona for a while, then grow as an Iron rodder, and then back and forth as they grow and learn line upon line. Teaching them that there’s only one way might make them feel guilty that they’re doing it wrong.

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By: Jim Cobabe https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541115 Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:16:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541115 I tend to view from this lens from the other end. Minor exceptions can occasionally be instructive, if used cautiously, and acknowledging that any conclusions we derive from them are probably fatally skewed. But for the most part, we as aspiring disciples are walking on safe ground when we adhere to standards promoted by inspired Church leaders, rather than the popular worldly dictates of the day. We’d like not to take care of the exception first. We’ll see to the rule first, and then we’ll take care of the exceptions.

From one perspective this means almost all of us are well served. On the other hand, it also means that under the reality of the constraints of time and common sense, some exceptions are neglected and will never become a consideration of the mainstream curriculum. We will always gather separately as men and women in Relief Society and Priesthood meetings. I have confidence that there will never ever be a exceptional class in the Church designated for hermaphrodites.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541113 Thu, 20 Apr 2017 15:54:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541113 Myers-Briggs has really fallen out of favor (and I’m not sure it ever was in favor among specialists). It has a lot of problems. There was a good Psychology Today rant on it from a few years back I often quote. A lot of the criticisms apply to the taxonomies I’ve mentioned here about Mormons only moreso given the limited categories. To be fair though last year they published an editorial defending it. Although it’s interesting that in the defense the author notes it has been the “target of extremely harsh criticism from the community of professional personality psychologists.” He also links to a Vox critique of it I’d not seen before.

I’ve ranted on Fowler a lot – probably too much in the past – so I’ll restrain myself. I do think it’s even worse than the categories I’ve mentioned in that it almost always ends up privileging the higher levels as the correct and enlightened ones. (Which of course always end up rejecting religious truths as actual events)

But I think these things can be useful, as I mentioned, if used cautiously and acknowledging their flaws. I just find I usually encounter them with people using them as a way to subtly indicate their position in them is best.

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By: sch https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541111 Thu, 20 Apr 2017 15:19:32 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541111 On a more serious note, let me agree with those who find that using categories as ways of describing behavior can sometimes be helpful. For example, when I first read Richard Poll’s sacrament meeting talk about Iron rod vs Liahona members published many years ago, I found it to be refreshing and enjoyable. It helped me understand myself better, and maybe others better as well. Over years of experience and reflection it is clear to me that a clear line separating all of us broadly into these two categories doesn’t make sense for many reasons. Still the dichotomy helps me remember that different people form testimonies and experience life differently. Thus I can’t expect directly extrapolate my spiritual experiences directly onto others. So his dichotomy is not strictly “true” but it is very helpful.

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By: sch https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/04/the-false-dichotomies-of-membership/#comment-541110 Thu, 20 Apr 2017 15:13:11 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36492#comment-541110 So, what I’m understanding here is this: You have found some Mormons like categorizing people into two (or more) groups, and others do not. You believe that not-categorizing people is better. Right? :)

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