Comments on: Utah Keeping the The American Dream Alive https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/utah-keeping-the-the-american-dream-alive/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/utah-keeping-the-the-american-dream-alive/#comment-540906 Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:14:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36407#comment-540906 Here’s the story for what Susan refers to. Not the valley’s finest moment by any means. It’s one thing to object to certain location. To demand no location and no help seems deeply wrong. On the other hand I can understand the fear given the situation with drugs and violence around Pioneer Park in SLC. And simply springing this on residents with no process of discussion was almost certain to have this sort of effect. If you want support you need to build the support and get feedback. Surprising people will always lead to anger and overreaction. However anyone who says the solution is to give the homeless bus tickets to other cities is simply shirking their moral duty.

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By: Susan S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/utah-keeping-the-the-american-dream-alive/#comment-540905 Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:57:00 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36407#comment-540905 Given an auditorium of 1,000 people in Draper booed a homeless man on stage tonight who asked for them to show compassion, yeah, I would say it takes the shine off of our “success story” a bit.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/utah-keeping-the-the-american-dream-alive/#comment-540886 Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:46:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36407#comment-540886 I’m not sure I buy that claim of ‘established money’ being the only upper-upper-class. Consider billionaires like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or any number of Silicon Valley entrepreneur. They’re recent money. Maybe they are in a place like Gatsby, but I think they can often have outsized influence that goes well beyond established money in say Long Island.

By that measure of course there are wealthy here. The Huntsmans being but one example.

Within mobility I think the 1% and higher are largely irrelevant. What we really want to know is whether someone in the bottom quintile can make it to the 1st or 2cd quintiles. As I mentioned with Denmark, one way to do this is just give money. But that confuses wealth somewhat with true economic mobility. There Denmark probably doesn’t do as well as Utah I suspect despite appearances.

To make that move though requires first off being able to develop the necessary skills. That’s not just education as usually used but important social skills that often the poor have a hard time developing like impulse control and contentiousness. That’s where I suspect family stability and the quality of especially discipline within families. There’s a fair bit of study suggesting that if punishment seems random it tends to lead to impulse control simply because it’s hard to judge causation by the brain. But also a lot of those skills just are hard to teach if parents can’t give enough time to the kids for whatever reason. Chaotic environments can also undermine even what good parents try to do.

I think that here Utah may for a variety of reasons do better than most states. We have less substance abuse, as mentioned more stable homes, and most importantly as the article mentions enough good stable families that form peers for those not in those environments. The peer effect is very large in setting behavior, habits and expectations.

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By: A Turtle Named Mack https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/utah-keeping-the-the-american-dream-alive/#comment-540885 Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:55:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36407#comment-540885 A common measure of economic mobility is movement between quintiles., as used in the Bloomberg piece. However, this is much easier when there is less variability. Utah doesn’t have the same floor, or the same ceiling, as many other states. In other words, the 1% in Utah cannot compare to the 1% in many other states. So, this may be less about having “all things common among them” than it is about there being less economic variation, or as you say, Clark’ “equality is simply easier with homogeneity”. I would submit that this is only the appearance of equality, however.

I had a sociology professor remark once, when discussing social class, that there weren’t any upper-upper class people in Utah. It’s about more than money, but includes influence, social connections, and “old money”. Utah simply hadn’t been around long enough for the money to be that old. Now, that was a whacky professor who wasn’t backing things up with actual numbers, just trying to make a general point about social class to students in an intro. class. Still, there’s something there.

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