Comments on: Children at the Pulpit? https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Felix https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540812 Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:44:56 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540812 Raymond, I don’t think the author of this post has a problem with children bearing their testimonies. The concern is that people are ignoring the Brethren’s counsel that children who are too young to bear their testimonies without an adult whispering in their ear should not bear their testimonies in Fast and Testimony Meeting.

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By: Raymond Takashi Swenson https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540811 Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:35:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540811 I don’t see a child’s testimony as being any less valuable than the testimony of many a new convert to the Church. New members have rarely had enough time to form a vocabulary of testimony bearing, to use the dialect of seasoned Mormons. Yet we encourage them to express their feelings, because it is important to recognize the “still, small voice” in our lives and get affirmation from the rest of the ward that, yes, such gentle things are real and valuable. It’s not like a young child is going to burn up 15 minutes with a travelogue. We want a low threshold to bearing testimonies.

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By: Joshua Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540801 Mon, 13 Mar 2017 18:56:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540801 We have a ton of it, no matter that the Bishop began testimony meeting last week with an admonition to curb this behavior….we still had it. We get the standard group of folks doing their standard travelogue along with kids propped up by parents. It’s a difficult meeting, but it can also be the most inspirational meeting which is what helps me endure the crazy ones.

I’ve had crazies calling the sitting Bishop a fallen man and described how the Government was out to get him….for 45 MINUTES…..compared to that, I guess a couple kiddos is better. Shouldn’t have to have that false choice, but in my experience silent reverence of no one getting up freaks out the masses….so we end up with craziness in all it’s forms.

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By: Senalishia https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540765 Fri, 10 Mar 2017 16:39:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540765 Cynically, my first thought on why we have kids “bear testimony” is “to publicly signal that you have properly indoctrinated them”. It seems I’m not the only one to have that thought.

On the subject of of youth praying in sacrament meeting, it’s never happened in my ward to the best of my knowledge. However, as I have commented to my husband after some over-long prayers in church, a prayer is /not a talk/, so I think inviting a youth member to give one would be a great way to involve them in the meeting and would not lower the level of discourse at all.

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By: Felix https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540763 Fri, 10 Mar 2017 02:45:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540763 The letter has seemed to have had an effect. In my experience, ventriloquist testimonies are now less common than they used to be.

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By: Alan https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540760 Thu, 09 Mar 2017 20:30:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540760 In my Orem ward, we generally have several young children bear testimony each month, but we almost never have parent help, or the old sing-songey scripted testimonies that we used to have 20 or even 10 years ago. In fact, I have often been impressed and even moved by the thoughtful, well-spoken testimonies given by many of our younger children.

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By: whizzbang https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540755 Thu, 09 Mar 2017 04:46:38 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540755 I can’t recall the last time a child even shared a testimony. We seem to get the Patriarch all the time reminding us he’s the Patriarch like 5 times. In my Mom’s ward they have the Stake RS President telling them she’s on a “Higher Level” now that she has that calling and she’s a Temple worker, besides of which her revelations she gets for people and she tells them what God told her to tell them. I live in Central Canada, not Ontario

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By: JR https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540754 Thu, 09 Mar 2017 03:25:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540754 Bobdaduck, once every few months and I might also think it “cute”; 25-55% of the meeting every month and I don’t. Mortimer’s comment was hilarious, it did not taste anything at all like a spirit of “better than these.” Read the last line and you will find he was exaggerating complaints like mine and suggesting that I stop complaining — probably a good idea. I guess taste is in the mouth of the taster; your first two sentences taste to me like judgment unbecoming a saint of God.

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By: bobdaduck https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540752 Thu, 09 Mar 2017 03:07:08 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540752 Mortimer: I get that satire can be an effective teaching method, but you strike me as irreverent. It tastes of a spirit of “better than these”, which is unbecoming of a saint of God.

We all have our gospel hobbies and little things that peeve us (mine is bowties passing the sacrament) but I’ve never felt the spirit while being all “tight” about some point or another of the cultural process. Kind of a Romans 14 thing here. There’s no need to rain on someone’s parade when they’re not actively following a path that leads away from salvation. A gentle notice at some points, maybe, but there are bigger deals to focus on like pornography and the atonement, which we do spend proper time focusing on.

Should parents force their kids to bear testimony? Nah. Is it wrong for the kid to be like “Can I do it too?” and the parent to help them? Nah. I don’t really care to get all frustrated at kids trying to follow a positive or semi-positive example. This is probably why leaders don’t do much to stop it. The “brainwashed” kid can learn to think later, and its not like anyone gets through the teenage years without some serious testimony-adversity anyway.

For my experience: I see little children bear testimony once every few months. Usually its cute. Its Mormon-y, even, what with our love of families.

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By: Mortimer https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540743 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 19:56:00 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540743 It happens.
It is multi-generational.
It’s culturally embedded.

You can pry this bit of folk religion from our COLD DEAD Hands.

Sure, it’s annoying. Sure it’s against the handbook and the doctrine of the age of accountability and makes no sense.
But, gosh, kids are soo cute. Who are you to look at the most adorable bambi eyes and tell them to STOP it? You are all a bunch of politically correct humbugs.

Perhaps you haven’t considered the “pluses” yet.

1) You get to show the world that you are raising your children to do churchy things, without needing to say “hey! Aren’t I a righteous parent in Zion???? Look at MEEEE and my cute kid!”

2) You might be a weekend parent who does precious little with your little kiddos during the week, but you will feel like you are dad or mom of the year when you make, er, um, “see” your kid do something so righteous.

3) You get to show off your little rug rat.

4) You get extra points in heaven for each member of your family that bears their testimony. (Take THAT sisters with less children or the childless godless people out there!)

5) You are training your little boy- your little angel to be the next Prophet, the next GA, the next Bishop. (Can’t you see we’ve also dressed little Joseph up in a charcoal suit and tie even though he is just three?)

6) You are training your little girl to be the next Molly Mormon and righteous wife. Besides you spent a month sewing her a little conference dress to match your own. It’s time to show it off little Eliza.)

7) Grandparents love it!

8) It burns up time that you don’t have to speak.

9) You have an excuse to stay up there (while your kid squirms) and bear your testimony.

10) You can show the Primary Presidency that your little darling should be star of the next Primary Program.

See, it’s wonderful. Hush bitter and angry bloggernacle. Hush.

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By: Moss https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540741 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 18:01:27 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540741 Ha! I just caught my typo. Maybe if there were actual “Testimony Bears” the meeting would be more tolerable for everyone.

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By: Anna https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540740 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 17:46:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540740 We have a real problem with it in my ward. As far as visitors go, I would never bring a nonMormon to witness the long string of two to five year olds who get up or their parents carry them up to the stand. First of all, if the child has to be carried up there, he is not up there on his own. He just wants to do what the other kids are doing. Seriously, after 20 kids who want to “bury their tettimousy,” it stops being cute. Some are too little and shy to even repeat what their parents whisper. After the long string of kids saying the exact same three sentences, it really does look like brainwashing. Encouraging kids to say they “know” when they don’t know, but just know what others have said ….well, there is a name for the psychology behind that trick of the mind that if you repeat something often enough, you come to believe it is true. But most lay people just call it brainwashing. A whole long string of 20 children is boring. It is not reverent when the kid gets up and giggles because it is fun to be at the mike.

The eight to twelve year olds follow after the littlest kids, and maybe or maybe not an adult will get up before the meeting ends. But when there are ten kids waiting in line, the adults often will not even get up so the whole meeting can be children.

Now, I appreciate that when children see other children doing something they want to join, and I appreciate that parents think it is cute, and I even appreciate that people want their children to learn to talk in front of a group and that learning what to say in a testimony is important. But sacrament meeting is not the place for children to copy other children or for parents to show off their cute child. It is not even the place to learn to speak in front of a group. And it is not the place for children to recite the five sentences of the testimony glove like it is a catechism. Sacrament meeting is supposed to be for worship, reverence, and partaking of the sacrament.

I hate to sound like a crotchety old lady, but it feel like I am in primary when the whole meeting is nothing but children. And truthfully, it makes me feel crotchety.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540738 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 16:48:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540738 Adano, to defend those who just bear a short testimony, if accompanied by the spirit that’s all I need. I prefer that to travelogues. But I do agree some people seem to be going through the motions.

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By: adano https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540737 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 16:37:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540737 mel: It’s not just the kids who give the brainwashed-sounding rote testimonies. I hear it from plenty of adults, and I just tune it out.

If I ask for help with a math problem, I don’t want you to just tell me “I know the answer is 7.” I want you to explain how you got to that answer, so that maybe I can get there too. And yet, so many LDS think bearing a testimony is just saying “I know the answer is 7.”

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By: M Buxton https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/03/children-at-the-pulpit/#comment-540734 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 15:50:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36294#comment-540734 Our East Coast ward has very few child testimonies and almost no parent-prompted testimonies (which I agree are problematic)–so it is definitely not a big issue. We had one precocious 6-year-old this past week, who was quite cute but who veered into open speculation God creating us because he was lonely (curiously, an adult got up after and said she agreed with the child’s speculation). I think the parents were a little embarrassed, but I’m sure it was an issue of them not wanting to discourage her interest in “bearing testimony” rather than pressuring her to do so. I can sympathize with that approach. Once when there was a rash of child testimonies, I discovered it was a result of a well-meaning (but in my view misguided) primary teacher who had challenged all the kids her class to bear their testimonies in sacrament meeting.

But I will push back a bit from the notion that sacrament meeting must be “adult focused.” If the church expects little children to be in the meeting (and not being cared for elsewhere, as many churches do), then I think it is perfectly appropriate for at least some of the meeting to be directed at them. I appreciate when speakers attempt to engage my kids (so very few do) and I like an occasionally song from the Primary Song Book. Heck, if they can sing songs from the Primary Song Book in General Conference, I don’t see why it is inappropriate in sacrament meeting once in a while. A sizable portion of the congregation in many wards is children. Why wouldn’t we want to engage them to the extent we can?

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