Comments on: The inner logic of Mormonism https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: al https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540847 Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:52:27 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540847 This is a sad post. Sad because there are a lot of Mormons who cannot recognize the core doctrine of the gospel. I will do it for you. Love the Lord your God with all your might mind and strength and the second is like unto it. Love your neighbor as yourself. This doctrine casts man in the middle of a relationship to God and to his neighbor. Whoever fulfills these two commandments becomes a similitude of Jesus Christ, in other words a Saint. We are the church of personal mediators of the atonement (i.e. Saints) through Jesus Christ.

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By: Martin James https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540569 Wed, 15 Feb 2017 00:47:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540569 Other Clark: I didn’t mean corest as most important, I meant it as “fundamental to what differentiates mormonism from other Christian churches. I would put living prophet and priesthood in that corest of core also. Personally, I find the increasing lack of differentiation of LDS doctrine to be an indicator of a lack of faith among the membership. Atonement doesn’t differentiate LDS doctrines from other churches. What else have we had from recent prophets that approaches the proclamation on the family? Abrahamic covenant wasn’t on your list but it is in my core also. The doctrine of intelligences combined with coming to earth to get a body would seem to mean that if births are curtailed, intelligences don’t come to Earth which seems pretty significant.

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By: The Other Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540536 Tue, 14 Feb 2017 03:37:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540536 Martin, family size is a really great example of a Mormon practice that is tied to a bunch of different doctrinal pieces, including the plan of salvation, our role in bringing spirits into the world, the eternal nature of families, eternal increase, even agency vs. destiny and so on. But the “corest of core doctrines”? Really? More than the Atonement? More than eternal progression? More than faith, repentance, baptism, and the G of the HG? I don’t think so.

If it were, we’d hear about it every general conference, and frequently in sacrament meetings and Sunday School. We’d be asked in our temple recommend interviews. The fact that it isn’t, to me, is a good indication that it’s more to the periphery of the web.

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By: Martin James https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540534 Tue, 14 Feb 2017 01:29:20 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540534 One interesting doctrine/practice continuum to consider is the number of children that people have. Elder Cook recently quoted Pres. Kimball about church opposition to practice which greatly limit the family. The practice of church members has been a reduction in the number of children from earlier decades. Are and were large families a core doctrine of mormonism? I think that is the corest of core doctrines and that the majority of church members have been in apostasy to that doctrine. It will be interesting to see if the trend reverses.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540491 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 18:49:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540491 The problem with politics is that especially in the US where there’s huge incentives towards two parties that means you’re always in a coalition and are usually doing a calculation of tradeoffs. No one in the coalition likes everything that gets pushed but usually they like it better than the opposition. That means even slight differences in emphasis by people who may largely agree can have them on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

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By: The Other Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540490 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 17:09:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540490 P.L.– I agree with your overall point that those books are not comprehensive, but instead focus on the “core doctrines” that Church leaders want the membership to focus on.

Your other point that studying the “core doctrines” leads naturally to conclusions about free market economics, etc. supports the conclusion of the original post, i.e. “everything is related.” However, looking at worldwide membership–or even within Utah–I would have to disagree that church doctrine leads inevitably to a single political viewpoint.

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By: JR https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540489 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 12:41:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540489 P.L., “If you read and honor the teachings of the prophets you’d come to the conclusion that you should to opposed to communism, and you’d also should to come to the defense of the prophets who practiced polygamy.”

Apart from those two examples that I don’t choose to address, if you read the teachings of the prophets you’d come to the conclusion that on who God is either (or both) Brigham Young and Spencer W. Kimball were simply wrong on the identification of God the Father with Adam. There are other examples of such contradictions among the teachings of persons sustained by the Church as prophets and revelators. The whole matter of reading and honoring the teachings of the prophets is not as simple as you (or perhaps The Other Clark) portray it.

If Jesus were to address disputations about points of His doctrine (as opposed to the teachings reflecting the limited understanding of men (or women) including Church leaders), perhaps it would be in the form reported in 3 Nephi 11:31-40. There is no mention of communism or polygamy or numerous other matters on which leaders of the Church have taught (whether or not you call their teachings “doctrine.”) Jesus concludes “And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock…” That conclusion may be a bit harsh if one equates the doctrine or teachings of leaders of the restored Church with the doctrine of Christ. I prefer to read it as making a distinction between Christ’s doctrine and others’ sometimes flawed attempts to interpret it or apply it in the context of specific concerns, whether cultural or theological. Of course, this is not to say that my attempts are not also flawed or have not also changed over time,

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By: P.L. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540488 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 08:42:04 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540488 “the teachings that didn’t fit–even signature teachings like ETB’s anti-communism, or JT’s defense of polygamy–were removed.”

That’s pretty slanted. No one would argue the books are comprehensive of their teachings that are true. But that the books served a purpose to teach principles that the Lord wanted the church to focus on.

If you read and honor the teachings of the prophets you’d come to the conclusion that you should to opposed to communism, and you’d also should to come to the defense of the prophets who practiced polygamy.

But that doesn’t mean the Lord or his servants think those topics need our attention right now. They were important in their day and no less important when people try to use them as a wedge against faith, but not generally important enough to teach the body of the church when the principles taught and the spirit followed will lead to those conclusions anyway.

To the extent that more and more people feign confusion on social issues (gender, Priesthood, homosexuality), the prophets do speak clearly to the Doctrine for those that have ears to hear.

It’s usually only the people who don’t have ears to hear that are saying there’s no doctrine there.

If you want to disagree and say I’m being too harsh, just imagine that this whole discussion is taking place in the time of Jesus’ mortal ministry. Do you think that Jesus will say, yes you’re right there’s no clear Doctrine and the truth is mushy? I think he’d be clear about all the sophistry and speak unambiguously about the prophets saying if you have read them you don’t understand them. And then he’d give a parable about servants in the vineyard disputing amongst themselves about the master’s directives rather than doing them.

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By: Jonathan Green https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540486 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 05:03:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540486 JI: So you need a system that incorporates both doctrine and folklore, and allows for individual differences – and also allows for both competent and defective understandings of Mormonism. Everyone’s different, but not every view is equally valid.

Dave, I think the example of Mother in Heaven is particularly interesting. It’s a good example of a doctrinal gap – if marriage is eternal, then what about God the Father? What fills the gap, both semi-officially and as folk doctrine, though, is very Mormon stuff: sacred silence (paralleling temple worship), ideals of domesticity or cooperative partnership, even plural wives. What tends not to fill the gap are things like Mary or Mother Earth. It’s much easier for Mormonism to fill its gaps with existing parts of itself, while outside material gets treated with more suspicion.

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By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540484 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 00:11:20 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540484 Trying to identify the core doctrines of Mormonism is a project doomed to failure…

I agree! One Mormon’s doctrine is another Mormon’s folklore. I’m okay with this, what some see as dissonance.

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By: JR https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540483 Wed, 08 Feb 2017 21:33:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540483 Clark, re “young but married men on missions” — My uncle born in 1930 was [allegedly] the last of those 19 year old missionaries given permission to marry before going. He married two weeks before departure. Some years and 4 children later that marriage ended in divorce. This would put the final shift in that practice around 1949-50.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540482 Wed, 08 Feb 2017 20:10:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540482 It’s probably easier to add or re-emphasize things that had normatively become neglected than it is to delete items. Of course we can delete significant things. Patriarch to the Church is gone. Blacks and the Priesthood issue dropped and theological defenses largely rejected.

I don’t think heavenly mother or seer stones work since in many circles they never dropped out.

Policies are always easier to shift when they don’t depend upon doctrine. So the number and sizes of temples, meeting schedules, practical methods of collecting and distributing funds etc. Indeed I kind of wonder in these days of everyone contributing electronically how long deacons doing fast offerings are for this world.

The rate of change seems a bit different. Especially if we use 1977 as the pivot point. Maybe this just reflects my biases but 1977 seems a whole lot more like 2017 than 1937 does to 1977. Admittedly the differences aren’t profound. The real big changes happen in the decades immediately prior to the 30’s. But if you lived in 1937 you’d probably have polygamists in your ward which seems freaky to even consider. There’s a good chance women were giving blessings to women for child birth or feminine problems. There likely were young but married men on missions still. (Don’t recall the exact date on that shifting) Most members had likely regularly come in contact with apostles directly.

On the other hand since the 1980’s we’ve had tons more scholarly work on Mormon history and particularly Mormon scripture. The Church is nearly everywhere rather than primarily limited to the Mormon belt in the west. Mormons aren’t seen as nearly as weird. The theology in many ways has changed, largely in response to closer readings of neglected scripture, closer attention to early Mormon history but also more of a harmonizing of science and theology through primarily apologetic groups like FARMS in the 80’s through 90’s. Then the use of the internet both for critics but also for Mormons even in meeting halls is huge.

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By: Dave https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540481 Wed, 08 Feb 2017 19:54:52 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540481 Very interesting ideas, Jonathan. In light of your claim that removing or changing this or that seemingly non-core doctrine or practice might have significant unintended and unforeseen consequences, it would be interesting to ponder the impact of the following changes in LDS practice over the last generation or two. I’m sure other commenters can come up with a few more.

— Eliminating local seventies, previously an office an a quorum at the local level.
— Informally dropping Coke and other caffeinated sodas from the definition of “hot drinks.”
— Emphasizing Heavenly Mother in LDS doctrine (previously a “we don’t talk about it” topic).
— Acknowledging the possession of some of Joseph’s seer stones and their us in BoM translation.

This set of changes seems to illustrate how malleable, even ad hoc, are most LDS doctrinal formulations.

— Creation of the three-hour block and elimination of RS and Primary meetings during the week.
— Embracing the “smaller temples” idea, then building them all over the world.
— Eliminating local contributions to building funds.
— Moving Conference from the historic Tabernacle to the newly constructed Conference Center.
— Lowering missionary age to 18 for young men and 19 for young women.

Together, these and other changes make life as a Mormon rather different in 2017 than in say 1977, only forty years ago. A mix of both retrenchment and assimilation moves.

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By: The Other Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540477 Wed, 08 Feb 2017 16:23:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540477 #12, thanks for clarifying. I agree that Mormonism is a web, and while the atonement is at the center, everything is interconnected, and tension in any given area will strain several other related areas, and in fact, will be felt throughout the entire web.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/02/the-inner-logic-of-mormonism/#comment-540475 Wed, 08 Feb 2017 15:52:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36237#comment-540475 When put like that I certainly don’t have any problem with your position, although often false ideas also have lots of connections making it difficult to disentangle. Even controversial issues like leads to these problems regardless of truth. How to deal with certain gender issues like homosexuality is a great example – marriage as man and woman only is intertwined with so much but then that limits what we can do to deal with the social issues. That’s why most of us think a major revelation on the subject is in order. Regardless of how it resolves things it’ll cause theological problems.

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