Comments on: Guest Post: Before We Make Up Our Minds

By: Molly not Mo

Molly not Mo — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 15:24:09 +0000

False equivalency. Nice try though. For added guilting and virtue signaling you could add the Crusades and sins of all Christians like the left already does. Boohoo. We’re talking the here and now. Show me the Mormons that currently do ANY of those things: the child brides, blood oaths, the violence and armies, etc.

By: el oso

el oso — Tue, 07 Feb 2017 02:44:08 +0000

Let me drive the logical stake through the example given. In the first 7 highlighted cases of law-breakers, most of them were brought to justice primarily by Mormons. The legal system in Utah did not shy away from several of these individuals, in fact it elevated their prominence as the case against them was being built. The bottom line is that for most of these crimes Mormons will bring the criminal to justice.
Both Trump and Obama allege that the legal system in the 7 Muslim countries involved in the immigration ban is incapable of justice and that, therefore, the individual immigrants cannot be distinguished from criminals. Also, Muslim immigrant communities in other western countries are notorious for law breaking. In some cases, they are bringing the wars, battles, and disrespect for law with them.

By: al

al — Mon, 06 Feb 2017 03:25:26 +0000

As charitably as I can, this is logical nonsense.

By: Chris g

Chris g — Mon, 06 Feb 2017 02:46:30 +0000

I think one also has to factor in current levels of societal coherence. Assuming things should be purely rational is, itself, not rational. For instance one likely factor in avoiding another civil war in the 1890’s and 1920’s was popularist control of the “immigration” question. Any major change, especially during times of major moral awakenings (near total moral resets) is very hard on a society and it’s level of coherence and asabiyah (societal coherence capital).

So if the dynamics are not rational (in the homo economicus way of thinkin), you’re left with a functionalistic paradigm. It matters less what is right or wrong in the idealistic sense and matters more what outcomes are produced. In this light, trolley problem research is very informative. Some people worry about net outcomes. Some people worry about intentions and acts of commission rather than omission. Neither trolley solution is arbitrarily “good” or “evil”. At the societal level balance between both approaches is needed. I wonder if perhaps it’s too easy to forget the societal dimension of righteousness, assuming it is entirely an individualistic thing…

By: Clark Goble

Clark Goble — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 23:04:11 +0000

Half Canadian, I’d certainly favor a more Canadian like immigration system which goes after high productivity workers and especially more educated ones. One could debate that this results in a brain drain in the native countries of course. Canada’s definitely been criticized for that. However by and large educated immigrants start businesses and employ the less educated in the US.

I don’t think anyone is advocating a huge welfare system and then importing immigrants to put on that welfare system.

By: Tim

Tim — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 22:33:59 +0000

Again, differences. Refugees in the U.S. are quickly forced into the job field–and there are currently plenty of jobs for them. Refugees to the U.S. are very carefully vetted. In Europe, typically not so much. Apples and oranges.

By: Half Canadian

Half Canadian — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 21:49:08 +0000

Muslim immigration to the US has typically been driven by recruitment for jobs. If we change that, then we Europe’s problem.
And I’m not entirely sold on the ability of the US to avoid Europe’s problem of later generation of Muslims dis-integration from productive society. Later generations of Muslims in Europe are more hostile to their home country. Why can’t that happen in the US?

By: Tim

Tim — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 20:27:41 +0000

Clark is correct. I’ve lived in Europe, and worked with the Muslim communities in Europe. I’ve also worked with Muslim communities in the U.S. The differences between these communities are vast, and include: levels of employment, levels of social integration, levels of religious freedom, percentage of legal Muslim immigrants versus undocumented, difficulty in gaining citizenship, and vetting processes. On all counts, the U.S. does better at avoiding the kind of social problems that exist with Muslim populations in Europe. Unfortunately, Trump’s presidency may make us more like Europe on this front and may worsen the social issues.

By: Clark Goble

Clark Goble — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 20:04:33 +0000

The sizes of the community and the difference in the safety net here in the US which forces faster assimilation. Regardless of ones fears for the future the existing communities are just quite different than Europe. Also Europe just has never had a multicultural model like Canada or the melting pot model of the US. Dealing with immigration of this sort the past few decades is new for them (and arguably they’ve not done a good job with it) The US for good or ill has a very dynamic economy which just doesn’t allow things like France to happen.

By: Half Canadian

Half Canadian — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 19:50:36 +0000

Tim,

If the rising Muslim populations are causing social problems in the UK, France, etc., why do you think it won’t happen here?
And if you accept that these social problems will happen here, why is Larry a bad person for not being on board with that? The people who will ultimately suffer, or benefit, from these immigration decisions aren’t even alive right now. . Shouldn’t we be a bit more serious when we make these decisions?

By: Tim

Tim — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 02:50:20 +0000

Do people even read through a post before commenting? A couple recent comments seemed to miss the point of the post…

“It’s not that the individual (Mormon), or his family members are to be feared, but what happens when they form a community and the (prophet) runs the show. That needs to be examined.” That kind of thinking is exactly why the Mormon pioneers were forced out of their homes and cities.

By: Larry

Larry — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 02:29:22 +0000

I feel that if we are to evaluate what will happen here, we need to look at what has happened in Europe, in places like Germany and Sweden. Take a look at Paris and London where large Muslim communities exist. Why do police, firefighters, and others fear going into those communities? It’s not that the individual Muslim, or his family members are to be feared, but what happens when they form a community and the Imams run the show. That needs to be examined.

By: Kristine N

Kristine N — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 01:11:10 +0000

Question: when Muslims move to the US do their attitudes toward jihad change? As in, does the exposure to a secular society undermine the acceptance of jihad as an acceptable response?

By: Aaron K.

Aaron K. — Thu, 02 Feb 2017 18:00:06 +0000

Thank you for this post. This isn’t the first time you’ve come through for me when I’ve been down about my fellow co-religionists.

By: Clark Goble

Clark Goble — Wed, 01 Feb 2017 15:54:32 +0000

James (19) No relation to any Eds that I’m aware of. Although I recently signed up for that forum I don’t go there often.