Comments on: Sometimes History Should Rhyme https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540466 Tue, 07 Feb 2017 04:52:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540466 JI, while I’d agree people tend to overreact to those they disagree with politically, I’m a bit loath to say we can’t talk about what government ought be.

]]>
By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540463 Tue, 07 Feb 2017 04:00:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540463 Okay, so we are agreed — all of Jesus’s teachings in the New Testament were directed to individuals, and none to governments.

Some among us are bewailing the president’s recent moves to limit immigration, suggesting that fellow Saints who support limitations are un-Christian. They err in such. Rather than calling others un-Christian, especially others within the household of faith, we would do better to actually follow the teachings of Jesus. Jesus taught individuals to be kind to their neighbors, and offered an expansive definition of neighbor. Each of us is free to be kind to others, such as refugees nearby or far away. That seems more Christian to me than calling fellow Saints un-Christian in a public policy argument about immigration. Actually ministering to one’s neighbor as a voluntary act of love seems more Christian than arguing and labeling in disputations on public policy matters.

In short, I reject the notion that, to be a good Christian, one must oppose the president’s recent moves. It is unseemly when some Christians say other Christians are less Christian because of disagreements on public policy matters, or when some Christians claim that Jesus is on their side in a public policy disputation.

]]>
By: Jonathan Green https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540451 Mon, 06 Feb 2017 17:01:09 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540451 JI, I can’t even figure out why we’re having this discussion, and I suspect that this won’t do much good, and I don’t get why you’re insisting that I come up with some specific thing that you know doesn’t exist. However, as far as Jesus calling for changes in law…um, Exodus? Leviticus? Jehovah sending prophets to tell kings of Judah and Israel how to conduct their foreign policy? It seems like Jesus as Jehovah had some quite specific things to say about laws and policy of all kinds. I have no idea what kind of immigration policy you’re in favor of, but it seems to me that your assertion that Jesus never called for changes in law just isn’t going to work in a Mormon context.

]]>
By: Brian https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540445 Mon, 06 Feb 2017 01:35:07 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540445 ji,

What are your thoughts on the Proclamation on the Family? (Especially that last paragraph).

]]>
By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540444 Mon, 06 Feb 2017 00:08:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540444 Jonathan,

Can you share one example from the New Testament where Jesus called for changes in law? Just one? I don’t think you can, but I always want to learn. As I recollect, all of His teachings were to individuals; none were to Caesar or Herod or their governments.

]]>
By: Jonathan Green https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540443 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 23:40:46 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540443 I should probably leave this to the local NT experts, but it seems to be untrue that Jesus was only preaching to individuals. Much of the Gospels are directed to Israel as a collective nation. And then there are the OT prophets, who are most explicitly addressing the nation. So the idea that Jesus only addressed individuals seems to be untrue, and wouldn’t even get you very far anyway if it were. Also, I don’t see the connection to immigration policy. What were we talking about, again?

]]>
By: Brian https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540442 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 22:58:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540442 Anonymous,

Any fool can make such a claim about anything. You prove nothing. Except about yourself.

]]>
By: Anonymous https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540441 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 22:36:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540441 Loursat,

Yeah, sometimes we receive those who tell the truth as court jesters. It’s the only way we can handle the poignancy of their message. So, if the guy’s a little nuts or just plain crazy, then we can have our little chuckle and move along without having to deal with the fear of being reproved by what he’s saying.

]]>
By: Loursat https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540439 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 18:15:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540439 And it continues! ji’s moral contortions are really delightful, from a certain point of view. He is the very model of a troll for Trump.

]]>
By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540437 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 16:37:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540437 Tim,

The United States has not sustained Elder Holland as a prophet. If he wants to influence public policy, he has to do so by persuasion, not by the authority of his office.

But I appreciate his concern. As an individual, I share his concern. I hope he is successful in influencing others.

You seem to resist the principle that Jesus taught individuals, not governments. Yet it is true. He taught individuals to be kind to their neighbors, and suggested an expansive concept of neighbor. But He never gave any teaching to Caesar in Rome, or Herod in Jerusalem, on public policy matters. Jesus was not a social justice warrior. Jesus wants to save individuals.

There is no “Christian” answer to the public policy matter of immigration. The United States does not sin by controlling in-bound immigration. However, in our pluralistic society, individual citizens are free to try to influence their representatives. It is okay for a citizen’s religious thoughts to color his or her public policy opinions.

]]>
By: Tim https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540436 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 13:59:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540436 “Nations don’t follow the teachings of Jesus…”

And yet here’s Elder Holland, recently: “Governments today are not responding to the refugee problem urgently enough, nor on a large enough scale.” http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-elder-holland-migration-insights-modern-refugees

Modern day prophets are telling governments to change their ways.

]]>
By: Jack https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540434 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 02:40:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540434 Yeah, kinda like the difference between a bull and a bowl in a china shop. A very subtle difference, phonetically. But, oh, what a marvelous difference, practically.

]]>
By: Loursat https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540433 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 01:31:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540433 Jack, you don’t have quite the subtle touch that ji brings to the job. Keep trying!

]]>
By: Jack https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540432 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 01:24:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540432 Loursat,

Yeah, I was busting a gut back in 2011 when Obama did the same thing. Pretty funny.

]]>
By: Bill https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/01/36207/#comment-540431 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 00:19:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36207#comment-540431 “Even with the recent executive action, the U.S.’s immigration policies and practices are still the most liberal in the world. That’s good news.”

This is sort of like saying that the US has the world’s best health care system. Depends on what measures you use. It is true that the US takes in the most immigrants per year in absolute terms, but it is a huge country; on a per capita basis the US is the 22nd most generous nation.

]]>