Comments on: Water under the bridge at Christmas https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Mark S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540082 Mon, 02 Jan 2017 19:00:03 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540082 “There is nothing to gain by antagonizing your ideological opponents, especially when they are in a position to push policies that affect you negatively”

OK, declining an invitation wouldn’t be antagonizing a political opponent, the MoTab is not a political group (plus, the tactics that Trump used to win prove every part of that idea completely wrong). Second what exactly could Trump to negatively affect the LDS church? Trump’s behavior and past do not reflect LDS morals in any, way, shape, or form. The MoTab has no business singing at his inauguration. In so doing, it shows that they have no moral backbone, and neither do you.

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By: Tim (not Cook) https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540081 Mon, 02 Jan 2017 13:20:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540081 I bring up Tim Cook visiting Trump Tower and the church making policy modifications to achieve Utah statehood as examples of people doing things they’d rather not do to achieve a desired end. I would suppose the brethren prefer the church be seen in a positive light rather than as angry foot-stamping contrarians who don’t like the morals of last November’s winner. Favorable consideration from the new administration would be the hoped for result from the MTC performing. Trump is so emotionally flighty it might not make a positive difference, but to not perform certainly would, in a negative way.

I’ve done a little work at my state legislature to advance the interests of my occupation. I work equally well with Ds and Rs, environmentalists and industrialists, men and women, people who share my values and those don’t. There is nothing to gain by antagonizing your ideological opponents, especially when they are in a position to push policies that affect you negatively. This is the reality of politics and interpersonal relations.

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By: Mark S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540080 Sun, 01 Jan 2017 22:24:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540080 Worry over angering a volatile and unpredictable president-elect because of not accepting an invitation is ample reason not to accept an invitation. Your second comparison is even more bizarre than the first. That was over 120 years ago. Are you worried that Trump is going to revoke Utah’s statehood and declare Mormonism illegal or something?

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By: Tim (not Cook) https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540078 Sun, 01 Jan 2017 00:32:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540078 Mark S: I agree it’s not an apt comparison. Where I saw a similarity was that Tim Cook, had he declined the invitation, would likely have angered Trump, which would not have been wise from a corporate standpoint. Similarly, I assume the MTC was invited to perform, and so similarly did not decline but was “honored to be able to serve our country by providing music for the inauguration,” and at least have the institutional church not held in worse esteem than it already is by Trump.

Perhaps another comparison to be made is the actions of the church while seeking statehood for the Utah Territory.

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By: Mark S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540077 Sat, 31 Dec 2016 22:11:26 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540077 Tim (not Cook). Seems like an apples to oranges comparison. I think advisers should most certainly advise Trump at his invitation, and also not at his invitation. If we can’t remove him from power (which should be the first option) then the second option should be reasonable people trying to convince him to craft reasonable policies. The MoTab is not a group of advisers, they are a choir. Their singing at his inauguration comes off as somewhat celebratory and accepting of Trump, even if they don’t intend it that way.

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By: Tim (not Cook) https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540076 Sat, 31 Dec 2016 21:18:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540076 Meanwhile, there’s an interesting parallel between this issue and whether or not Silicon Valley CEOs should have answered the summons to visit Trump Tower. Apple CEO Tim Cook: “Personally, I’ve never found being on the sideline a successful place to be. We engage when we agree and we engage when we disagree. I think it’s very important to do that because you don’t change things by just yelling.” http://fxn.ws/2hywhvC

Look at the thoughts of why Cook would go to Trump Tower to have, perhaps, a preview of why the MTC (and the church) would still remain positively engaged with the Trump administration.

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By: Walter van Beek https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540075 Sat, 31 Dec 2016 14:53:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540075 I understand that the Brethren will shortly be issuing a statement explaining why they have decided to accept the invitation. That is a good idea, and as far as I know a first. So let us close the discussion for the moment till we have their statement. Thanks for the debate, it has been highly enlightening.

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By: Patrick F https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540074 Sat, 31 Dec 2016 08:34:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540074 Mortimer at #58 (and perhaps others): At the risk of drifting off-topic, I did not vote for Trump and am no fan, but I am getting a little tired of the oft-repeated claim that he actually “encouraged” the Russians to hack Clinton and/or the DNC. I remember laughing myself when I heard him make what was clearly a joke that rather cleverly linked tied the earliest rumors of Russian hacking to the controversy about Clinton’s private e-mail server. He said something to the effect of “Hey, Russia, maybe you can find us the 30,000 missing e-mails.”

I thought it was quite funny, actually, and clearly meant that way – but almost immediately Trump’s political opponents in the media began spinning it as if he were seriously encouraging Russian interference in the election. Your comment would seem to demonstrate that they were successful in their objective, proving the adage that a lie, repeated often enough, will eventually become truth. I’ve not been able to find any record of Trump having said anything outside of this one statement – clearly made in jest – that could be even remotely construed as encouraging Russian hacking. I think there’s plenty enough about Trump to criticize without twisting his words to mean things he never really said.

I think it’s also worth noting that no one knows exactly when the invitation was issued to the MTC by Trump’s Inauguration Committee, or how long the Brethren took to decide to accept it. Many of the criticisms I’ve read here are based on inferences or assumptions about timing and motives, but with few (or no) actual facts.

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By: sjames https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540073 Sat, 31 Dec 2016 02:36:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540073 To the suffering saints “… if in order to be humble we must be humiliated, give us the courage to say, let it come”. (Hugh B Brown).

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By: Kurt https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540072 Fri, 30 Dec 2016 23:05:38 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540072 An interesting conversation.

Before reading this, I assumed the issue was more one-sided than I now see it. Initially, it was a shock to see the choir associated with Donald Trump through the inauguration, but then I valued how it set an example of impartiality, tolerance, and patriotism. I still largely feel that is the case.

However, it almost seems as if the decision to sing and participate will be a boon for the Church and its message to those not familiar with it, whereas it confuses and turns off many of those who are members or familiar with the Church. In particular, for those outside of the US, I can easily see how this has an effect opposite of what is likely intended,

Sometimes certain events must take on greater importance than the people involved. There are no perfect politicians, no perfect choir members, no perfect Church leaders, no perfect observers. The principles of American government are designed to see the country survive beyond the influence of dangerous elected officials, whoever they may or may not be.

As a Utah Mormon who does not support Trump, I support the decision for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to sing at the inauguration – although I am saddened at some of the vitriol I have seen displayed on both sides of the issue. I also believe it adds significantly to the discussion to address how it discusses those outside of the US.

Thanks, Walter.

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By: Jim Cobabe https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540071 Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:44:04 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540071 Should now the Church disband because someone thinks we are “weird”?

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By: Mark S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540070 Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:22:20 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540070 Clark and others, you talk about introspection on the left, it is happening among just about everyone, including conservatives. The fair number of conservatives who reluctantly supported Trump (maybe because they thought it would be a victory for conservatism or maybe because they thought that HRC would have been worse) are anxiously wondering how much Trump is going to try to carry out his campaign promises, and are trying to come to terms with what conservatism even is. Many are pained about Trump being able to rise on the racist, xenophobic, and misogynist elements, something that they had desperately tried to shed from the movement, of conservatism and are wondering if he is going to upend the movement altogether.

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By: Mark S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540069 Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:15:32 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540069 Update: 5-year Mormon Tabernacle Choir member Jan Chamberlin posted on Facebook a letter of resignation that she wrote to the Choir director over its acceptance of Trump’s invitation to sing at his inauguration. Here is part of it:

“When I first auditioned and entered Choir, it was to follow deep personal impressions, and to honor my late father, who was among the best of men. Now I must leave Choir for the same reasons. My father ( who was an expert airforce bomber) hated tyranny and was extremely distraught over the holocaust. He and Mom both loved people greatly.
I have deep patriotic feelings for this country and for the freedoms of people everywhere throughout the world. I am troubled by the problems we face which seek to destroy our love for liberty and respect for humanity internationally.”

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By: Jim Cobabe https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540068 Fri, 30 Dec 2016 18:49:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540068 I don’t see the controversy. From my charitable perspective, the Choir is obviously just trying to be like Jesus ( Mark 2:16 ).

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/12/water-under-the-bridge-at-christmas/#comment-540067 Fri, 30 Dec 2016 17:07:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36105#comment-540067 Jonathan (68) some groups within the Democratic party have obviously seen these as more of an issue. I’m speaking more broadly although admittedly primarily by the liberal media I regularly read. How representative that is can admittedly be critiqued. However Obama’s actions on things like the OPM hack which arguably is much worse than the DNC hack seems a pretty objective problem.

Wilfred (70) I actually agree completely with you. It’d be quite different if MoTab wasn’t one of the few acts willing to work with Trump.

Geoff (69) I don’t think that can be said enough. There are huge social gaps between Europe and the US (with Canada falling somewhere in between although probably of late closer to Europe)

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