Comments on: No Big 12 for BYU https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: BlueRidgeMormon https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539543 Mon, 24 Oct 2016 23:56:07 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539543 This will alienate some folks, but I’m with Clark in not seeing the big “religious freedom” argument/worry here. Meaning: everyone cries “religious freedom” as if that means that churches and church-sponsored institutions should be able to do whatever they want, blank check. Those who think this misunderstand what religious freedom really means, and in fact oftentimes church members who are big proponents of religious freedom (and all of the grievances about how it is violated) are really rooting for the OPPOSITE of religious freedom: the ability of churches or organizations to impose their beliefs without constraint. This is pure rubbish.

As a church, it’s our right to have a code/policy prohibiting coffee consumption. It’s NOT our right to discriminate against coffee drinkers. In the context of an academic institution, it’s a tricky line to walk. I do think some of this stuff is heating up.

But I happen to believe that BYU SHOULDN’T be allowed in the Big12. It’s not our constitutional right to compete in a particular sports conference, if we have (from the secular viewpoint) discriminatory policies. This is the same reason that BYU has to comply with Title IX and have women’s teams. I just think the LGBTQ issues are hot/current and not completely settled – – but make no mistake about it, they will be. And when they are, I speculate (like others) that BYU’s interest in Div I sports in general will likely wane.

And you know what folks? That’s ok. It may be heretical to say on this post, but football has little eternal significance. :)

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539523 Mon, 24 Oct 2016 03:00:01 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539523 Jim, a lot of people were predicting an 8 and 4 season at the beginning of the year. Given how easy the rest of the schedule is, I think that’s easily achievable.

While I won’t deny I’ve been disappointed in a lot of play, especially from Taysom and the WRs, we’re only one game off what I expected. We have a very hard schedule and an entirely new coaching staff. I also thought Taysom wouldn’t do as well given all the wear on his body. I just didn’t expect some of the other problems we had. (Line at the beginning of the year, WRs all season – although I confess I was worried about the secondary during summer when everyone was telling me they’d be great)

Anyway, I do think fans expect a bit much of BYU. It’s never done better than about .500 with Power 5 teams. If it were to get into a conference there’d be a few years of adjustment. The one thing I think many of us are excited about though is better recruiting than we’ve had in a while. That’ll take time of course. And we won’t do as well as if we were in the Big 12. But I do think the program is improving. The fact so many games this year despite injuries and weak play were so close says a lot about the team. Had we experienced coaches and players recruited specifically for the style of play they want and this year easily could have been a 11-1 seasons.

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By: Mike https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539522 Sat, 22 Oct 2016 17:32:46 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539522 Loursat – It does seem like a lot of effort to go through, unless the networks were balking and seemed unconvinced. Whatever better way to convince them to cough up the money than act publicly like you’re really going to expand.

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By: Jim Cobabe https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539521 Sat, 22 Oct 2016 02:35:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539521 The big football conference issue is rather moot this year. With a losing season, BYU football proves unable to deal with the challenge of the teams they are playing now.

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By: Loursat https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539520 Sat, 22 Oct 2016 01:10:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539520 Yeah, I don’t buy the idea that expansion was always just a feint. If the Big 12 were smart enough to hatch such a big Machiavellian plot, they also would have been smart enough to do it more quietly, without manipulating and embarrassing some twenty other schools in the process. I think the reality is that it’s a conference with weak central leadership, very unequal power among its members, and independent, egotistical university presidents who ultimately call the shots. That made the process very messy. In a better world, any school would hesitate to join a bunch like that. Unfortunately, the Big 12 is the only game in town right now as far as BYU is concerned.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539519 Fri, 21 Oct 2016 20:36:01 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539519 The idea expansion never was intended is the current conspiracy theory. The idea was they just wanted more money and a playoff, which they got. While not out of the realm of possibility I confess I’m not sure I buy it. (Not that I have any inner information) My sense is that ESPN and Fox opposing the deal caught them somewhat off guard.

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By: Mike https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539518 Fri, 21 Oct 2016 02:41:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539518 I know this doesn’t really impact the discussion about the potential long-term effect of the Church’s position on LGBT issues, but many people in the sports world believe that the Big 12 never intended to expand, and even if BYU didn’t have the LGBT issue expansion would not have happened. The conference’s contracts with Fox and ESPN required the networks to pay an additional $25 million per year for each additional team. The Big 12 played the networks and a whole bunch of teams to force the networks to pony up with more money to be divided among the existing teams in exchange for the Big 12 forgoing expansion. Each team gets more money than the contract provided and that’s what they wanted.

Would the political issue have impacted BYU getting into the conference if it had expanded? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But expansion was never really intended.

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By: Chet https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539516 Thu, 20 Oct 2016 00:34:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539516 Any recent LGBT political news from North Carolina?

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By: Old Man https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539515 Wed, 19 Oct 2016 23:22:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539515 I don’t believe the LGBT activists were as influential as some are claiming. This was a public pageant aimed at getting more cash out of ESPN and Fox for the current members of the Big 12. It worked for the Big 12. And left mud all over some fine institutions, including BYU.

But I do not doubt that some LGBT activists would love to destroy BYU. The culture war is just warming up.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539513 Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:51:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539513 Yes both seem to be living in the past in a lot of ways. At least from the outside they seem to ultimately be hurting themselves. Texas hasn’t been the same since that first time BYU beat them. (They’re 3-3 this year and it’s been a long time since they dominated) At least Baylor and West Virginia are doing well. (#9 and #12) And Oklahoma is #16. Although to be fair Oklahoma in preseason rankings was #3, Texas was #11 and TCU was #12.

Part of the problem is that there tends to be a mindset at both Texas and Oklahoma that those two teams shouldn’t really have competition. (Thinking of here Barry Switzer’s comments about expansion this year and saying it was a mistake to let TCU in because it diluted Texas and Oklahoma)

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By: Northern Virginia https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539512 Wed, 19 Oct 2016 19:34:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539512 It’s all the result of a mid 90s shotgun marriage between the dysfunctional remnants of a once-powerful conference with rampant cheating and relatively large viewership and a powerful-on-the-field conference with limited viewership built on the backs of partial qualifiers (I’m looking at you Nebraska). If the Texas and OU football teams had continued to win at 2008 levels, expansion would be a non-issue.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539511 Wed, 19 Oct 2016 19:19:58 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539511 Yeah I couldn’t quite figure out the Houston issue as even in summer there were stories that there was political pressure in the state but that it wasn’t in the Longhorn’s best interests to have an other in state team. Especially considering TCU’s improvement. But that makes it even more confusing then since they’d have two teams, BYU & Cincinnati. I’ve heard a lot of people putting the blame now mostly on ESPN.

My guess is that we’re going to move to 16 team conferences with playoffs in the near future. The only question is when it happens and what precipitates the move. My guess is that declining TV revenues will be the big driver and that it’ll happen prior to 2024 and potentially as early as 2020. ESPN in particular is starting to hurt financially. College basketball and football is the obvious place to squeeze.

The Big 12 sure looks bad after all this though.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539510 Wed, 19 Oct 2016 19:13:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539510 My guess is that part of this is that the Brethren didn’t want to modify the honor code and make it seem like they did it under pressure. There will almost certainly be adjustments to the honor code & honor office due to issues on Title IX and potential abuse of records by the BYU police. That means that there is ‘cover’ for adjusting it in some way.

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By: Northern Virginia https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539509 Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:28:06 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539509 Clark, as a Texas alum and close follower of the expansion issue, I would caveat your analysis that there is a definite perception that Texas’s support for Houston’s inclusion in the Big XII was simply PR to get Houston to sign off on the building of a UT-Houston campus not far from the Houston campus. It wasn’t clear whether Texas would have actually voted for Houston’s inclusion, especially given that it would be inviting another rival for Houston-area recruits into the conference.

Given everything I’ve read on the issue, I personally don’t think BYU’s Honor Code or Sunday play policy were deal breakers, and, in fact, I don’t think a lack of consensus on the two teams to invite was the issue at all. I lay blame at the feet of ESPN and Fox who were apparently able to either kick in some more cash or threaten the Big XII with less favorable contract terms once the TV deal expires (though I personally think that the records TV deals we’re seeing now are about to become costly dinosaurs as more people cut the cord so it may have been something of an empty threat). Had BYU been paired with another P5 school (Louisville for example), that might have worked, but no one in the any of the other P5 would even contemplate coming to the Big XII right now. The time for such horse trading was in 2010. Texas’s AD at the time failed to support expansion, and, here we are.

For BYU, it appears that the problem here is a mix of geography (the Big XII already has one geographical outlier in West Virginia. Who wants another one in the “wrong” direction?), lack of national prestige (yes there are lots of Mormons in the U.S., but non-Mormons aren’t going to watch BYU-Okahoma State), and changing opinions on same-sex issues. I feel bad for BYU fans, and for people who might have been introduced to the Gospel through BYU’s inclusion, though I’m willing to be the Lord has a backup plan or two for them.

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By: Rob Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/not-big-12-for-byu/#comment-539508 Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:10:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35883#comment-539508 ,
I dont think it would stop there. LGBT lobbyists are so hell bent on forcing their agenda down everyones throats that unless BYU and other schools push back it will be only a matter of time before the entire university is shut down. They are actively lobbying to remove accredation from BYU.

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