Comments on: Jeremiah, Truth and Intelligence https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/jeremiah-truth-and-intelligence/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/jeremiah-truth-and-intelligence/#comment-539524 Mon, 24 Oct 2016 03:02:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35822#comment-539524 Well, I guess I’m still not sure of the objection. While sometimes things are a mix, that doesn’t mean the spiritual part can’t be broken out nor that there aren’t clear spiritual manifestations as well. I’m not trying to make a one size fits all solution here. I’ll be talking a lot about epistemological issues in the future so maybe I can clarify that more in those posts.

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By: jasonscomely https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/jeremiah-truth-and-intelligence/#comment-539517 Fri, 21 Oct 2016 02:01:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35822#comment-539517 A very timely and powerful message for me, especially the part about how the fruit of our thoughts will be the cause of our destruction. It’s as if the Lord spoke right to me!

Thanks for following your inspiration.

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By: Anonymous https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/jeremiah-truth-and-intelligence/#comment-539514 Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:13:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35822#comment-539514 But if “in practice…things often are a more subtly blending of the empirical and spiritual ways of knowing”, which I also find to be the case, then shouldn’t that temper the claim that “it’s direct knowledge by the spirit”. I’m much more comfortable with the language in Alma 32 where the end result is to say something is Good rather than to claim to have direct knowledge. Alma even limits this when he talks about what is learned to being confined to a given sphere. I find Alma 32 to be more harmony with what Hazony is arguing.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/jeremiah-truth-and-intelligence/#comment-539501 Tue, 18 Oct 2016 21:22:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35822#comment-539501 Carey, not entirely sure what you’re objecting to. I was just referring to the idea of personal revelation or communication to know if the things a prophet says are true. Hazony is saying we know by looking at classes of consequences of the predictions on their own terms. That is a prophetic statement is effectively interpreted the same as a secular statement via secular means. That is in terms of consequences or classes of consequences and patterns therein.

Now I certainly don’t want to devalue traditional more empirical or especially pragmatic ways of knowing. Neither do I want to claim God will always clearly answer our questions about everything. (He certainly doesn’t for me) I do think though that if a prophet is making a controversial claim that our prior way of determining if he is right is via the spirit.

Of course in practice I think things often are a more subtly blending of the empirical and spiritual ways of knowing. Certainly it’s frequently that way in my life.

More significantly I think this is taught in various ways in the Old Testament. That is while I think Hazony raises a great point about the OT he expands it too much. Not just overlooking the competing authorship issue but the very different sorts of assertions in the text.

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By: Carey F. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/jeremiah-truth-and-intelligence/#comment-539500 Tue, 18 Oct 2016 20:19:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35822#comment-539500 Clark — what source would you use to support your claim, “We think it’s direct knowledge by the spirit that allows us to do this.”

I suppose I do hear this from time to time, but I’ve always just accounted that to people not being familiar with more nuanced views of faith and knowledge.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/jeremiah-truth-and-intelligence/#comment-539413 Wed, 05 Oct 2016 17:43:27 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35822#comment-539413 Well I think his argument is a little more than that. As I said it is controversial on its own terms but also Mormon terms in certain ways. However the basics if perhaps narrowed more than Hazony takes it is important. It’s the idea that much of God’s commands are tied to consequences and are intrinsically knowable. Alma 32 makes the same point.

Now there may be some things where that’s not true of where we have to take a bit more faith. (It’s for this reason that I’d love to know how Hazony reads Job where God is presented as unknowable in a way perhaps opposed to how Jeremiah presents him)

I’d add that this has long been a part of the Mormon psyche going back at least to LeGrand Richard’s A Marvelous Work and a Wonder where utilitarian arguments are made to justify commands given by revelation. (I should note as an aside that I think if anything Mormons have gone a tad too far in this direction – especially relative to the Word of Wisdom)

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By: jader3rd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/10/jeremiah-truth-and-intelligence/#comment-539411 Tue, 04 Oct 2016 17:10:11 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35822#comment-539411 Are you saying that we need to put forth personal effort to learn the truth, and risk learning something not taught in Sunday School? Heresy.

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