Comments on: Forthcoming Battles Over Religious Liberty https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539408 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 19:12:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539408 Sorry folks – the car I was in broke down in the Arizona desert on Friday so I’ve not been able to keep up. I think everyone’s said their peace and things are starting to get a bit repetitive now so I’ll shut things down so we can muse on General Conference.

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By: Rob Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539407 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 19:10:00 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539407 Hans noot,
Same sex marriage legalization means that governments must pass anti discrimination laws and force the creation of a recognized genderless society. The impacts are vast. It will affect everyone in most aspects of their lives. We are already seeing this with affects on new hate speech laws, genderless bathrooms/locker rooms, small businesses, etc. Churches will be affected the most. Some churches no longer offer adoption agencies, marriage counseling, etc because of threats by new laws. Private schools are being affected with losing accredation, federal grant money, etc.

There are a lot of things it’s going to affect

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By: MS https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539406 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 18:44:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539406 HN–what if the feds come after BYU for not allowing same sex married couples to live in BYU student housing or be students there? Are we then free to practice our religion? What if they insist that all doctors under the nationalized health regime perform abortions or euthanize patients? What if the state of CA comes back again to take away CAL grants from students who attend religious schools, as they surely will. Mind you, we all pay taxes to fund these CAL grants. This sort of thing is coming down the pike or already here, and don’t you think these are all instances of the feds limiting and restricting religious freedom? I personally think that forcing Baronelle Stutzman to use her talents on behalf of a gay wedding would be forcing her to compromise her religious beliefs. She’s standing her ground to protect other Christians. These are all religious freedom issues that those who would force us to adopt their thinking about marriage and family are working to bring about. They don’t want to live and let live. They are perfectly happy with Satan’s plan–force. That’s why I think these are very much religious freedom issues.

About church sanction of marriage–well, I can see a day coming when the church separates sealing from legal marriage per se, so that people get married at the county clerks office and get sealed in the temple, as I think is already the case in parts of Europe. As you point out, that is pretty much what happened with polygamy, since it was not legal in the U.S. But I think it is good for legal and religious marriage to coincide because marriage law is deeply entwined with so many aspects of life–tax code, inheritance and the like. But you are right that we have had to part company with civil law on this issue in places where marriage has been redefined. I don’t think, however, that government is going to leave us in peace to practice our religion as we please.

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By: Hans Noot https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539405 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 15:52:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539405 MS, of course religion and social issues overlap. Everything overlaps. The question is not about the issue on same sex marriage, but on whether or not the same sex debate is a religious FREEDOM issue. As I understand it, the USA government is not forcing anyone to believe in or practice same sex marriage. So there is still freedom of religion, even if one does not agree with a government decision. Moreover, mixing the realm of religions with the realm of politics or legality, causes a lot of frustration for a lot of people. In the past, for example, the church always allowed the law to define religion by saying that we need to be LEGALLY wedded. In my eyes this was always a problem, as we allowed the government, thereby, to define marriage. It got the church into trouble during the late-polygamy days, it gets the church in Africa where polygamy is legal, and it makes it difficult for missionaries in Europe to explain why a couple with children, who have been co-habiting (legally), cannot be baptized. It makes it difficult to explain our LDS marriage practices in countries such as India, etc. I am not saying I disagree with the church. All I am saying is that for religions to defy or fight law by claiming it is against the freedom to practice their religion, causes confusion. So, I raise the question again, why is this an issue of religious Freedom. We are still free to practice our religion, even if we agree to disagree.

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By: MTodd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539404 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 15:51:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539404 ji, yes, but with or without those things, it’s wrong to say that Bobby shouldn’t go to the party because he’ll end up in prison if he does. Similarly it is inappropriate to assume that we’re going to totally screw up future generations because same-sex marriage is legal.

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By: MS https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539403 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 15:37:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539403 I know what a slippery slope argument is, I just don’t particularly see how it applies. In fact, it’s not a matter of slippery slopes–it’s already here and burgeoning. To be fair, producing children with the intent to remove them from their parents–buying and selling children–was already underway, but before making marriage genderless we had a strong argument to counter this practice because the form of marriage upheld the assumption that marriage is the permanent union of a male and female and any children born to them. That very form teaches people what God intends for men, women and children in families, that children need a mother and a father, and whenever possible their own mother and father, something that pretty much everybody agreed upon after the Murphy Brown fallout. With redefined marriage, people deny that is true in spite of evidence that it is. Now the definition of marriage teaches us that marriage is about adult fulfillment, which implies that if adults want children, however they get them is A-Okay. No thought is given about what is best for children. It is about what adults want. This whole redefinition of marriage is a giant experiment that falls heaviest on those least able to weather it–children. Again, I did not say that gay people can’t be good parents, but being a good parent is not enough when a child is deliberately denied mother or father or both.

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By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539402 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 15:12:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539402 MTodd,
But that would be sufficient reason to someone who loves Bobby to provide a caution or chaperone or curfew or some other support or protection for him?

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By: MTodd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539401 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 14:37:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539401 That should say “inexorably lead”. Stupid autocorrect.

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By: MTodd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539400 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 14:36:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539400 MS, a slippery slope argument is when you assume that one decision will inexorably lease to some awful conclusion. “If Bobby goes to the party with his friends tonight they’ll get him to smoke weed a gateway drug and then before we know it he’ll be in prison because of his heroin addiction.”

Yes, same-sex marriage is now legal, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that a lot of same-sex couples are going to make babies. And even if they did, it would not necessarily be as dire as you predict.

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By: MS https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539399 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 13:37:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539399 Hans, is it not possible that social issues and religious freedom overlap? I think it is clear that they do. Catholics, Mormons and other Christians have strong, Bible-based beliefs about sexuality. These beliefs, along with the belief that every person was equally valuable to God separated Christians from Pagans in the 4th century and before. Pagans didn’t have any problem with exposing unwanted babies, a double sexual standard within marriage, sex with children (part of male privilege) and so forth. We are fighting it, but the state now wants to punish those who want to adhere to Christian beliefs about sex– Christian universities, private citizens like Baronelle Stutzman, etc. In other words, the state wants to punish people for their religious views on a social issue.

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By: Nathaniel https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539398 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 10:41:27 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539398 According to the First Liberty Institute:

“As some of the major consequences of religious freedom attacks, the law group notes that “good employees are being unlawfully fired,” while businesses are being “recklessly harmed.” It also warns that public servants are being driven from their fields, while ministries and churches are being threatened or restricted “from fulfilling their spiritual callings.””

http://m.christianpost.com/news/religious-freedom-attacks-america-all-time-high-first-liberty-institute-warns-158461/

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By: Hans Noot https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539397 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 08:18:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539397 I still do not buy the idea that this discussion is about religious freedom. Rather, this is a social issue.

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By: MS https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539396 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 05:29:46 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539396 ji–exactly. That’s what religious freedom means. But I think the thought police would like to marginalize all who disagree with them.

MTodd–I don’t think I understand what you mean by slippery slope. Our church has a particular belief system–the one dictated to us by scripture– that has worked very well to guarantee children could, as often as possible, be raised by the two responsible people, their Mom and Dad, who brought them into the world. Adoption is necessary in our imperfect world, but we should be proud that Mormons have a good record of creating intact families that we believe last into eternity. It has been understood that this is the gold standard for children, even by people who don’t embrace our belief system. A lot of research has shown this is true. Remember the Murphy Brown controversy? After that there was a lot of research that showed the importance of Moms and Dads in kids lives. Men and women aren’t the same and we each have unique gifts to give children. This doesn’t mean that gay people can’t be good parents, they can, but they can’t give children that vital Mom and Dad in the home family. The social point of marriage, I believe, is not only to give adults life long companionship, but to give children their own Mom and Dad as often as possible. When marriage is redefined, that important underlying assumption about it is substantially damaged. Your gay friends could live together and have the lives they wished previously. No one stopped them. But now the assumptions about family and children have been changed, and not in a way that is good for children, the weakest and most vulnerable among us.

Our particular beliefs about sex, eternal families and so forth, as laid out int the Proclamation, are part of a larger story that helps us understand what male and female mean, how we should live, and what is best for adults and children alike. Other people are free to believe as they wish. Redefining marriage, however, has emboldened those with a more pagan, sex-centered world view to want to crush anyone who disagrees with them. That’s the worry here.

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By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539395 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 04:15:32 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539395 Some sins are crimes, some are not. Some crimes are sins, some are not. In the United States and some other countries, same-sex marriage is no longer prohibited by law — it is legal. As citizens in a pluralistic society, we have to respect the law. That means I have to accept that some of my neighbors might practice same-sex marriage — it’s legal.

But, I hope churches will be given the freedom to continue to define their own standards of belief and conduct for their members. I think there is a real concern that the proponents of same-sex marriage will try to use the power of government to force churches to stop teaching their adherents that same-sex marriage is sin. In the United States, we don’t want the government to dictate what a church may or may not teach — the government might define crime, but it cannot define sin. But where a church chooses to teach that same-sex marriage is sin, I hope it will do so with as much charity as practicable. I understand why some church members are concerned about protecting religious liberty against governmental intrusion.

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By: Rob Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/09/forthcoming-battles-over-religious-liberty/#comment-539394 Sun, 02 Oct 2016 03:37:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35798#comment-539394 Chadwick,
The Proclamation speaks only of a man and woman coming together in marriage and only through that lawful union of opposite sexes can sex occur.

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