Comments on: Classroom Discussion: Productive or Not? https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: jennifer Rueben https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538845 Mon, 12 Sep 2016 22:01:20 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538845 I know that the topic is older but I saw a true teaching moment this fast Sunday but the teacher was not brave enough to go all the way. After a testimony meeting full of testimonies that features praise for our ward and town and how blessed we are to live in this wonderful place safe from the evils of other wards and town the Sunday school teacher started his lesson on pride by standing on a chair and repeating almost word for word phrases from the earlier testimonies. Unfortunately he then moved to the lesson on the zoramites and did not apply the pride lesson to what had just happened. It might have been a less than feel good moment but a very thought prompting lesson. Don’t know if he even realized that he missed a chance to really teach.

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By: David Atwater https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538844 Mon, 12 Sep 2016 10:07:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538844 Look guys, SS could use some improvement, but there is a reason that the church controls the content. God said, “my house is a house of order”. You can intellectualize the gospel at home but not at church. Not only would you be inviting chaos, but you would be putting a heavy burden on the teacher.

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By: John Lundwall https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538721 Tue, 16 Aug 2016 03:56:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538721 Learning is 50% the teacher and 50% the student (or thereabouts). When a teacher comes prepared and a student does not learning is obstructed. Good teachers might inspire good students to want to learn. But that requires a really good teacher. And an interested student. Mormon SS often lacks both.

How to inspire something different? I am still uncertain if many local leaders want anything different. Difference requires deviating from the preformatted lesson’s questions and answers, and that risks “off the rail” comments and discussion (as indicated from the article Dave cited).

There is no easy answer. There is no magic pill. The new “Teacher’s Council” will do nothing but reiterate the pattern already firmly established in the culture. All I can do is teach the material in the way that I study and enjoy it. That’s all I will ever do. 90% of the time it’s a hit. 10% of the time I’m a heretic. I can live with that. So far, and luckily, so can most of the bishops (but not all) who have called me as GD teacher.

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538720 Mon, 15 Aug 2016 20:36:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538720 In almost four decades of teaching, I have broken into small groups maybe three times. The most memorable was during the GD lesson on the succession crisis after Joseph Smith died. Before the class, I called on three people to lead each of the three groups. I told them that I was supposed to meet the Stake President at some point during the class and that when they could see I wasn’t there, they were to take charge of the class. Surprisingly, it had the desired effect and was a vivid illustration of Nauvoo shortly after June 27, 1844. I don’t often go for such theatrics, but it was a large class and we met in the cultural hall.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538719 Mon, 15 Aug 2016 20:03:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538719 KLC, I kind of assume that too. But there is good reason for it pedagogically. I still hate it, but I’ll admit Chris gave a pretty strong argument for it. My complaint on it is that the questions we’re suppose to answer are so superficial or else are so personal that I just don’t enjoy it. I’m fine giving personal experiences when the moment seems appropriate but doing it on demand just makes me very uncomfortable. And when the question is so easy I can answer it right off, I just feel awkward for 10 minutes because I don’t want to come off like a know it all by answering it for everyone. (I rarely speak in Sunday School partially for that reason – priesthood is different since it’s so practical oriented)

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By: KLC https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538718 Mon, 15 Aug 2016 19:42:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538718 I forgot to add, whenever that tactic is used in a class I immediately assume the teacher is unprepared, has nothing to say, and just wants to burn some time.

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By: KLC https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538717 Mon, 15 Aug 2016 19:41:00 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538717 Breaking into small groups in a church class is the equivalent of governments tackling a problem by appointing a commission. It gives the appearance of doing something without accomplishing anything.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538716 Mon, 15 Aug 2016 19:25:27 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538716 I’d second what Kirsi says, although I usually do the reading in class. (I read fast) I usually find lots of questions and get a lot our of the lesson even if I’m not always listening too terribly closely. (I do listen – especially to interesting questions)

I think what Kevin and Joshua bring up is a big problem. It’s hard to get far in a lesson if no one has read it or (in many cases) is even familiar with the scriptures in question. It leads to a pretty huge gap in discussion and favors lecture style.

All that said over on lds-phil we were having a similar discussion to here. Many people there were far less cynical than I am and offered lots of good suggestions. My brother who has teaching degree, suggested breaking up into small groups. Quoting him (I’m confident he wouldn’t mind)

[The] biggest change church teacher training teachers could do would be to focus on total time people talk to each other about answers and thoughts. Right now you get some people thinking about each question, but only 8 or so interactions per class (1 one-way interaction every 5 minutes for 40 min.). If you split into small groups (say 6) for just one 10 minute period you’d now up that interaction rate to 18 interactions.

6 x 2 (due to two-way interactions) + 30/5

Add in one question that is a think-pair-share (share your thought with a neighbour and get their response, and the number of interactions jumps up to 80 interactions.

30×2 + 6×2 + 30/5

Thinking about interaction rates is a fundamental aspect of teaching strategies. Of course, structuring interactions to be properly primed and properly integrated into follow-up teacher led debriefs is challenging. But I think we do our students a big dis-service when we don’t facilitate enough opportunities for real edification. The big change online teaching has had on the profession is a wake-up call that face-to-face instruction time must be structured so as to take advantage of it’s niche strengths. This strength is quick response feedback which enables divergence in thought to lead to common understandings.

I objected that I absolutely hate it when teachers do this. (And I really do – both in Sunday School and Priesthood) His rejoinder was:

I’ve found how the question is structured is really key. I usually offer a couple of different approaches groups may want to take on the sub-topic. Then people don’t feel so constrained to the painful ‘share an experience you’ve had of ___ ____.”

If I’m doing break-outs, I also tend to start out with that rather than break up the pace of a class by splitting up part-way through. My key is getting out of teacher-centric mode as quick as possible so as not to bias the interaction with answer constraining dynamics.

I found the group break outs gave me an excellent chance for people to look over the headings of the lessons for a minute or two prior to sharing with others. In exclusive large group sessions people seem to bifurcate around ignoring the manual and listening to the teacher or ignoring the teacher and reading the manual themselves. Neither is very good leverage for face-to-face niche strategies….

The other theoretical thing small groups do, is allow each group to have a conversations at the level of depth most appropriate for them. In practice this means instead of one or two people con tolling the level for the class, you get one or two people controlling the level for each group. Not a perfect solution, but at least it offers the opportunity of meeting more people’s needs (at the risk of excluding those who don’t fit into each group’s specialization). Large groups really do have to shoot for mediocre. Small groups may still produced mediocrity, but it is via pockets of high and low.

But groups aren’t for everyone. Once its routine though, it does make you much more conscious of where to sit…..

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By: Kirsi https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538713 Mon, 15 Aug 2016 18:42:35 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538713 I used to read every week because I used it for my scripture study. I don’t recommend it. All the teachers do is read the lesson, so it’s even more boring if you’ve already read it.

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By: Joshua Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538712 Mon, 15 Aug 2016 18:19:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538712 To echo what Kevin Barney said, no one reads. I taught for 2.5 years recently and no matter how hard I tried, we never got much more than 2 or 3 people out of 50 reading each week. I’ve often wondered why we have Sunday School at all if the only ones invested are the instructors. Students aren’t invested, if they were, they’d read more. It’s not like the assignments are hard or long. This year is the Book of Mormon, it literally doesn’t get much easier (or more fulfilling) from a study perspective.

How do we avoid a lecture-model if no one comes prepared to learn? I felt that some weeks I wasn’t teaching, I was entertaining. I even joked with the Bishopric that it was part of my role to be somewhat entertaining.

Mortimer, I love all your comments. We don’t have dynamos because we haven’t taught them how to train to become dynamos. Lots of reasons for that, uniformity of curriculum for one which gives SLC the control of the message they so valiantly seek. I think control of the message is an important thing as we are in fact prone to wander, but we need to train folks how to study the Gospel, how to analyze context, and then how to prayerfully apply what they learn. We largely can’t accomplish that in the 3-Hour Block. I was fortunate to have a Dad who taught me a ton.

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By: jennifer Rueben https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538702 Sun, 14 Aug 2016 00:20:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538702 have to agree that most of our discussion in gospel classes is controlled by a few who seem to always have a personal story to tell or an unrelated comment. I unwisely attempted to all a question about a matter of doctrine once and after a firm verbal stomping by one of our self proclaimed experts I will not be commenting again. I have moved to a class where the teacher has a round robin scripture reading each week without discussion and am at least getting the assigned reading completed.

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538701 Sat, 13 Aug 2016 23:16:26 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538701 Kris, that’s exactly what my wife said so many years ago. As long as you transfer your passion for the subject (and especially the scriptures) into what you’re teaching you’ll continue to be terrific. Sometimes its lecture and sometimes its discussion. (See Kevin above, who’s class I’d love to be in).

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By: Kris https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538699 Sat, 13 Aug 2016 03:40:30 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538699 Oh, my heck. I am a scared to death Gospel Doctrine teacher. I have no idea why I, an old woman with no teaching experience was called. I am in agony for a day or two before each lesson. The bishop said he wanted me to teach because I was pragmatic. Well, I do my best. I get compliments, but this discussion has not helped my self confidence, thank you!

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By: Mortimer https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538698 Sat, 13 Aug 2016 02:44:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538698 SS= Mormonism light and Oprah’s audience open floor time.

Everything is relative -there are no “right” or “wrong” answers from the peanut gallery. The teacher asks, “what do you think about x?” Then calls on four different people who each say something unique. The teacher just says, “thank you” after each one. Were they all right? Wait! They were all different. What about that screwball answer? That was surely wrong. Was anyone right? Which was best? Who knows? We all had to be polite and treat each response equally. Time was filled. Did we teach the gospel? Point out the guiding lights and safety zones? Maybe or maybe not. We just took a polite poll.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/08/classroom-discussion-productive-or-not/#comment-538696 Fri, 12 Aug 2016 20:12:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35618#comment-538696 If our gospel education consists primarily of Sunday School then we’re doing it wrong.

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