Comments on: Some Thoughts on Trends in Apologetics https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538014 Wed, 25 May 2016 17:04:08 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538014 I think there’s a bit of that, but I also think the “conclusion is known” was always overstated. Certainly back in the heyday of FARMS when I read apologetics the most. Even back then there were quite a few disagreements over the significance of some parallels and even agreement on claims. There was a faith promoting aspect to it for sure. Also I think often there was a remnant of the siege mentality that I think characterized so much of mid-century Mormonism.

Perhaps this is just me disagreeing over what faith promoting means. Maybe others would disagree but I’d say Adam’s work while not straightforwardly apologetic in the FARMS mold is still apologetic and definitely faith promoting. Admittedly Adam is not usually arguing about facts and that is a big difference. But I think that the FARMS heyday was very open to going where the facts led. Indeed in many ways FARMS revolutionized church theology in a way I don’t think anyone else (McConkie, JFS, and Pratt all included) ever did. Almost always that was because they were more open to following where they thought the evidence pointed even when it went against “sacred cows.”

Now again I do think the big innovation not just in apologetics but in Mormon history in general, is less of a concern for arguing over facts than it is arguing over how things mean for people. I’m not entirely sure that’s healthy, I should hasten to add. I think in some ways it gets back to what I mentioned in the early Nibley apologetics where it just avoids engaging with difficult questions.

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By: christiankimball https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538013 Wed, 25 May 2016 15:55:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538013 Clark, this is kind of an open invitation for a question. I feel like the uneducated naif in the room but it’s sometimes vocabulary. I read your references on Structuralism and recognize the concept and even some of the seminal works and some of what works and doesn’t work (in my opinion but without hearing what others are saying or thinking). So with respect to Mormon apologetics, I notice a trend moving from the “faith promoting” style where the conclusion is known from the beginning and the argument seems to be results driven, to and toward a more open-ended style where the feel of it is more “let’s see where these facts, this argument, that comparison, take us” and more often than not ends with a question or “food for thought” or “more work to do”, but in any event without a neat “and hence thou shalt believe” summary. Now maybe that’s just style, but it feels different and in some important way feels substantively different.
So two questions: Am I imagining things? Or do you see something like this? (Did you just describe some of this in the OP and I didn’t understand? Embarrassing . . .) And what would you call this? More or less didactic? More or less polemical?

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By: Brad L https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538012 Wed, 25 May 2016 15:26:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538012 Thanks for the write-up Clark. Sorry I hadn’t noticed it earlier. I don’t have time for an in-depth reply, but I think your analysis is fairly good.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538010 Tue, 24 May 2016 21:26:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538010 I’m not sure it’s a dividing line. I think it’s more just that people at the Interpreter seems to get upset more at 19th century analysis while Maxwell is more open. However it’s a blurry line at best and there are people who are “associated” (I use that very loosely) at both who fit both styles. As I said, I don’t have a problem with looking through a 19th century prism if done carefully.

The better divide – although again it’s not absolute since I think the lines are far more blurry than people make out – is over a focus on ancient settings to explain texts or a focus on what the text means in terms of a kind of intentionality rather than background.

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By: BHodges https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538009 Tue, 24 May 2016 20:54:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538009 FWIW, from inside the Maxwell Institute I’m not seeing the clear dividing line you propose at the issue of 19th century parallels.

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By: Abu Casey https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538008 Tue, 24 May 2016 19:57:12 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538008 Thanks so much!

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538007 Tue, 24 May 2016 19:50:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538007 Actually this one may be more helpful. The above link primarily just dealt with Cassier. This one deals with Levi-Strauss whose influence probably is more significant. Levi-Strauss Structuralism. It also gives some good examples of the type of thinking going on.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538006 Tue, 24 May 2016 19:48:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538006 Abu, it’s basically the idea that there are structures in human experience independent of particular people. Often this was pushed in psychological terms so you see a lot of common ground between early psychology and psycho-analysis and myth criticism, certain forms of anthropology, and religious studies. Figures dealing with myth like Eliade or Campbell (who wrote the widely influential Power of Myth) more or less see themselves working on the border of psychology and history. The structures are not really arbitrary but tell something about the structures of human cognition.

This is the tradition in which Nibley was trained. Now in a few books he outlines his views, albeit in fairly vague ways. His book, The Ancient State, is probably the best place to see this. In it FARMS collected several of his non-Mormon scholarly works relevant to his apologetics. (And despite being dated they are quite well written) It also compiles quite a few of what I’d call more Platonic essays. Nibley’s view is kind of an odd structuralist account but he sees diffusion as more prominent than common psychology. (That is, common structures are due to the Nephites coming from the mid east and remnants of common old religion) However in addition to this he has fairly platonic conceptions as well. That’s actually pretty common among the more psycho-analytic types of structuralists. Jung is a classic example of that. Although you can also have less Platonic styled structuralists like Cassirer (who opposed both Heidegger’s phenomenology and Carnap’s positivism).

It gets kind of complicated quick – especially since while the structuralists all had common methods there were simultaneously big differences between the different figures. The main thing is that structuralists would look for common structures in cultures and especially their myths or religious texts. These structures would be abstract and would be broken out from the texts, sometimes doing violence to the myths themselves. The way to think of it is akin to the laws of physics being the common structures behind very disparate phenomena. Effectively these people were trying to find the common structures behind psychology, culture and myth.

I tried to find some good introductory links, but most required a fair background. The best I could find was this one “How Structuralism Became Post.” It’s a nice job going through the history and downfall of the movement.

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By: Abu Casey https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538005 Tue, 24 May 2016 19:02:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538005 Clark, can you explain a bit more what the term “structuralist” means? I’m perfectly willing to look it up, but I worry that it’s one of those terms that means something different depending on disciplines, who’s using it, etc. That said, you’ve given me a lot to think about here. Thanks!

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538004 Tue, 24 May 2016 15:25:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538004 Victor, I think that has been the move of apologetics, especially in what I’m calling its second phase above. Whether people agree with the apologists or not, they aren’t shying away from difficult problems like horses or steel in the Book of Mormon.

Now if the issue is inference to the best explanation based upon a limited set of academically accepted public evidence, then of course apologetics is fruitless. The problem with that is that I simply don’t think apologists disagree. They just note that what the best explanation consists of changes depending upon what the evidence discussed is. That is they think spiritual experiences completely change the calculus for what the best explanation is found to be. To them at worst issues like horses or steel are more akin to apparent contradictions in science. We may have evidence for contradictory views but presume there is an explanation that reconciles them as we gain more data.

The classic analogy for this would be quantum gravity where quantum mechanics and general relativity simply can’t be universally reconciled. Physicists then come up with speculative notions like loop quantum gravity or string theory that have no empirical evidence. More empirically inclined physicists then get upset at this calling it “not even wrong” since there’s no evidence or even way of testing.

I suspect some speculations by apologists such as horses being a translational artifact are akin to that.

The reality is that if we go purely by public tangible evidence no one should believe the Book of Mormon. It seems undeniable that was intended. (Thus the angel taking back the plates) The whole point of the Book of Mormon is something apparently fantastic that makes a demand to turn to God to find out if it is true. That is it’s very nature is designed to be a catalyst for prayer and personal revelation. That’s not to deny the importance of what’s on it’s pages. Just that I find it interesting how so much of Mormonism hinges upon this functional way to turn people to personal revelation.

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By: Victor https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/some-thoughts-on-trends-in-apologetics/#comment-538003 Tue, 24 May 2016 08:11:32 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35429#comment-538003 I’m a non-believer and so I think whichever way apologetics go will ultimately be fruitless if the end goal is to save the truth claims of mormonism. The facts and logic just aren’t there. I think the game in the future will be how to transition from current mormonism to one where community is maintained but based more on the provable.

That being said, the movement in apologetics toward engagement with facts and sound analysis based on those facts should always be applauded. The sooner we get there the better.

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