Comments on: ‘A Reason For Faith’: A Review https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Jared McCoy https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-538226 Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:36:16 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-538226 “That Joseph may have believed that his rituals were were of ancient origin I do not doubt. But he also believed he could interpret Egyptian hieroglyphics and death scrolls and that a Native American artifact he stumbled upon was once the property of an obscure figure from Book of Mormon times. Let’s accept the fact that he was, in addition to being a prophet, a visionary with a very active imagination whose evolving ideas about the Lord and the nature of the Godhead inevitably affected his recollection of his earliest spiritual experiences. When we do, it becomes a lot easier to sift the wheat from the chaff.”

Possibly the best thing I have read on the internet, ever.

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By: Phil https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-538015 Wed, 25 May 2016 19:52:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-538015 Maybe I stand alone in this, but i dont think the ban on the priesthood for blacks was a mistake. Whether Brigham Young was racist or not doesn’t change my opinion. Now I say this because I don’t know that our general authorities have blatanly said it was; I do know that many have made remarks regarding it, but otherwise I still think it’s a matter of perspective. My point of view stems from my limited knowledge of scriptures, and persons in them. From my knowledge, many inspired men and women have made errors (Saul and David stick out in my mind), as well as prophets (i.e. balaam, jonah, judas, etc.), but none of these went without some sort of punishment. Some made more grievous mistakes than others, but all had some form of rebuke for their actions and/or words that were against the Lord’s will (I realize these are mainly biblical, but the Book of Mormon has them too). If Brigham Young did make a mistake, why was he not rebuked or punished for it? Even Harris was. Why was David O. told not to remove it? If it’s in accordance with the “Samuel” principle, were the members the ones asking for the ban then? Who is God speaking about in the first section of D&C after he says their errors will be made known and they will be rebuked and chastened? Are we ascribing it in this case to Brigham or the members? Because i thought verse 30 showed a little more stability than to have the 2nd President and PROPHET of the church make a mistake for which he was neither chastised or rebuked; lead entire generations down an erroneous path. I’m not saying Brigham Young was infallible, I’ve already said I know prophets have made mistakes, some coming back from the mistakes and repenting, but I really don’t KNOW that it was a mistake and frankly i don’t think it was. It’s purpose, if it had one, hasn’t been revealed so I won’t pretend I know any better. This is simply my opinion. I am neither black nor white, but im black in the sense that im not white, alhthough I dont know that im white in the same sense. I have no feelings of being betrayed or let down. As far as im concerned, all the early prophets may have know things I can’t even imagine, and maybe also they have known things they themselves couldn’t comprehend. Regardless, I know they are true prophets because the fruits born from the teachings I HAVE followed convince me. To that I say amen.

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By: fbisti https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537926 Tue, 17 May 2016 23:33:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537926 Back to the issue of whom to “blame.” While I don’t disagree that our prophets and apostles, with perhaps (and I don’t know of any) a few exceptions have and continue to be working hard and doing the best they can within the limitations of their cultural baggage. However, I cannot believe that most did not know of many instances of half-truths, dissembling, rhetorical spin and sophistry, and other distortions of truth in their statements and correlated curriculum regarding history and doctrine. I realize that they justified (in good faith) this on the basis of the “greater good” (members can’t handle the messy truth?).

But, in hind sight, not all these justifications can be seen as correct, hence they bear the culpability for some of my sense of betrayal.

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By: Brad L https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537924 Tue, 17 May 2016 21:36:12 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537924 Nate: “Mormons think they can avoid the question by simply blaming everything bad that happens on human fallibility. This not only distorts our views on the good faith of our prophets”

From the Race and Priesthood Essay on lds.org:

“Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.”

Here it is quite clearly suggested that the Church regards the past statements of Brigham Young and other prophets regarding blacks and the priesthood to have been wrong and racist. Think what you want to think, but your view that the ban is attributable to God’s revelations through the LDS prophets is out of line with the LDS church’s most recent statement on the issue.

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By: Ben S. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537920 Tue, 17 May 2016 19:59:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537920 FarSide, it’s currently under construction. My semester is over, and I’m writing away, trying to deliver a manuscript by the end of summer.

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By: FarSide https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537916 Tue, 17 May 2016 15:45:18 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537916 Very good point, Clark. The culture, beliefs and practices of every religion and society are inevitably influenced by the world that surrounds them. Everyone borrows from everyone else. And the Lord finds a way to work within that reality to augment the understanding of his children.

One of the best books I have read in recent years about the influence of North American religious traditions on each other is Peter Manseau’s “One Nation, Under Gods.” I can’t recommend it highly enough. (Word caution: If you seek out this book, make sure you get the one written by Manseau. There are numerous books with the same or a similar title.)

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537914 Tue, 17 May 2016 15:11:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537914 Worrying about the influence of masonry on Mormon thought and the structure of our ordinances is somewhat silly when one stops to realize the consensus of the influence of Babylonian capture on the thought and structure of Jewish texts. Why is one acceptable while the other isn’t?

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By: FarSide https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537912 Tue, 17 May 2016 15:00:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537912 Ben S., is that the book you are currently working on or one that you previously published? I want to know so that I can get a copy.

And I share your views regarding “prophetic adaptation of environmental elements.” It provides a useful explanation as to why we do things a lot differently than those who have gone before us.

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537909 Tue, 17 May 2016 08:37:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537909 Brad: “God is more to blame than the LDS church leaders?”

Now I think you are asking the right questions. It’s the same question Elder Packer rhetorically asked about whether homosexuality was irreversible: “Why would God do such a thing?” Elder Packer asked the question sarcastically, but it’s not really a sarcastic question. It’s THE question of the modern world. It is responsible for the rise of Humanism, where the worship of man has replaced worship of traditional theocratic gods.

Mormons think they can avoid the question by simply blaming everything bad that happens on human fallibility. This not only distorts our views on the good faith of our prophets, it blinds us to many of the paradoxes of religion, paradoxes we are going to have to deal with sooner or later.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537906 Tue, 17 May 2016 02:30:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537906 Yes, but the issue isn’t just whether they intellectually thought it needed a revelation or not but Pres. McKay and others praying about it. That avoids some central apologetic issues.

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By: Brad L https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537905 Tue, 17 May 2016 01:40:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537905 Nate,

“Rather than continuing to blame all the messiness of church history on our leaders, we should put the blame where it rightfully belongs: God”

So the leaders are less fallible than God? God is more to blame than the LDS church leaders? If God cannot be treated as the ultimate standard of truth and right, then what can? We should be more charitable to past LDS church leaders than God? This leads me to ask: who do you worship? The LDS church leaders or God?

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By: Walker Wright https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537904 Tue, 17 May 2016 00:57:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537904 He doesn’t leave it out:

“Even though President David O. McKay pushed for reform on racial matters, he was convinced that it would take a revelation to overturn the ban. Hugh B. Brown…believed otherwise. Brown reasoned that because there was no revelation that began the ban, no revelation was needed to end it. McKay’s position held sway, especially as McKay claimed he did not receive a divine mandate to move forward” (pg. 170).

He cites Prince’s book along with several other sources.

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537903 Tue, 17 May 2016 00:16:58 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537903 Brad, I would change your #4, a bit. You say “it was it a product of fallible prophets subject to cultural biases.”

How about we say instead: “it was the product of prophets who did their best in the absence of clear direction or revelation on the subject.” That is the more charitable AND accurate assessment of the situation.

It is that absence of direction from God which is startling and problematic, but it needs to be considered. God allows lots of terrible things to happen in the world. We just thought he wouldn’t allow them to happen to his prophets and their teachings. But apparently, that is not the case. Rather than continuing to blame all the messiness of church history on our leaders, we should put the blame where it rightfully belongs: God. He could SO EASILY have made things self evident, clear, consistent, fair, just, and obvious. But He didn’t. He didn’t do it that way at all.

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By: Brad L https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537902 Mon, 16 May 2016 23:48:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537902 “When we cry ‘prophetic fallibility,’ it creates the wrong impression about these men.”

BUT

“Yet these huge blindspots exist”

So the prophets are both infallible and fallible. Sounds like an extreme case of doublethink to me.

As for priesthood ban, 1) was it racist? 2) is racism wrong? 3) was it a product of infallible prophets following God’s revelations? 4) was it a product of fallible prophets subject to cultural biases?

a) yes, yes, yes, yes = 3 and 4 are mutually exclusive. Logically inconsistent.
b) yes, yes, yes, no = God is racist and wrong
c) yes, yes, no, yes = prophets were racist and wrong
d) yes, no = we should probably be shouting you down (how else do we stamp out racism?)
e) no, yes = logically inconsistent with textbook definition of racism

You appear to fall in line with category a. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Category c is the healthiest view. Plus it is the most consistent with the Gospel Topics essay (although the essay should have come out more forthrightly about the doctrine being racist).

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/review-of-a-reason-for-faith/#comment-537901 Mon, 16 May 2016 23:13:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35301#comment-537901 “How do you know that the prophets were doing their best?”

It’s honestly hard for me to imagine that prophets weren’t doing their best. What I’ve read and experienced of the character of the leaders of the church, is that these were deeply devout men who were VERY familiar with the experience of the Holy Ghost. On a weekly basis, these men dish out callings and make decisions carefully prayed and ratified by the Spirit. I think they feel the weight of their calling and take it very seriously.

When we cry “prophetic fallibility,” it creates the wrong impression about these men. These are men who trust in God and wait on Him. In the absence of specific direction, they do things as they have been instructed in the scriptures and the historical LDS traditions. In the scriptures, God intervenes in dramatic ways to make sure mistakes are not made: talking donkeys, angels swooping away golden plates, road to Damascus visions, etc. You can’t blame the brethren of the 1970s for refusing to acknowledge the possibility of fallibility over something as serious as the priesthood ban. God does not work that way according to how He presented Himself in the scriptures, and how God has continually spoken to them in countless smaller revelations throughout their lives.

Yet these huge blindspots exist. The existence of these blind spots is a metaphysical question, not a question of human error.

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