Comments on: Reading Nephi – 11: Hermeneutic Interlude https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/reading-nephi-11-interlude/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/reading-nephi-11-interlude/#comment-537772 Mon, 09 May 2016 15:29:22 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35244#comment-537772 Clay, I don’t have a lot of material on this, though it’s a fairly common philosophical assessment of Mormonism’s position. Givens harps (eloquently) a lot on the metaphysical collapsing of God and Human in his writings. I mention it briefly a few times in earlier posts (and can’t remember if I return to it), such as here: http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/reading-nephi-1113-18/

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/reading-nephi-11-interlude/#comment-537771 Mon, 09 May 2016 15:26:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35244#comment-537771 Yeah, sorry about the hiatus. The semester bowled me under. They’re set to come out regularly now.

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/reading-nephi-11-interlude/#comment-537770 Mon, 09 May 2016 14:27:10 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35244#comment-537770 Yay. Another one of these . . . .

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/reading-nephi-11-interlude/#comment-537765 Mon, 09 May 2016 03:30:46 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35244#comment-537765 I think the condescension of God is more significantly than it’s usually given credit here. Part of that is reading it in light of Mosiah 15 where it’s given a near Merkabah twist. Of course the Two Natures in most traditional theology for Jesus have tons of trouble. (Lots of parts seem very unconvincing to me) Here the condescension is completely wrapped up in the eschatological imagery of the tree, fruit and waters. It’s not presented as metaphysical but it’s presented in a combination of future history and eschatology.

An other thing that’s interesting is verse 6. I’d have to check Skousen, which I don’t have access to right now, to know if that verse got modified. But if it wasn’t then it’s fascinating that it presents the “most high God” and then Nephi is blessed “because thou believes in the Son of the most high God; therefore thou shalt behold the things which thou has desired.” It suggests that knowing about the Son is something key here.

I’m not sure the “wherefore” in this verse has been discussed before. It seems to read as if it should be “therefore.” “Therefore” refers to what came before and is like “thus” while “wherefore” is more like the word “why.” I confess other than just getting its meaning wrong I’m not sure how to take it. The phrase after the semicolon would seem to be a question if the wherefore is right. Any English majors up on archaic English able to take this one up? (This use is misunderstood in Shakespeare as well – “Wherefore art thou Romeo?” is the classic example for “wherefore.” It’s “why are you Romeo?” not “where are you Romeo?”

The other thing that’s interesting to me is that the climax of chapter 11 is verse 33. Yet nothing really contextualizes it. Exactly how Jesus is slain for sins isn’t really explained at all. That’s at least as mysterious as Lehi’s imagery Nephi is trying to understand. Is it being presented as a substitutionary atonement? It doesn’t come off that way. I’m almost half tempted to read “slain for the sins of the world” as “slain for of the sins that the world see as sin.” That is less tied to traditional Christian atonement passages but makes more sense with verse 32 where the world judges him. His crucifixion is due to the world judging him and the atonement/condescension is much more the fact Jesus came. This also makes the inversion in the next chapter where the Twelve Judge the world more interesting.

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By: Clay Cook https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/reading-nephi-11-interlude/#comment-537748 Sun, 08 May 2016 15:25:30 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35244#comment-537748 Thanks! One of the reasons I find Gospel Doctrine and even stake sponsored Institute Classes so frustrating is that we never seem to have the time or the will to dig deeper into the scriptures. It usually seems extremely glossy and superficial. I am very interested in both of your frameworks particularly the second. Could you provide any resources for further exploration.

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