Comments on: Modern Sources of Belonging– Secular Age, round 5 https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Rachael Givens Johnson https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-538401 Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:17:18 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-538401 Thanks for the encouragement, zjg – just the push I needed. I’ve been sitting on this last post for two months now, partly because of hectic research travel and partly because this post raised some complicated questions for me that needed some more mulling over, but it’s up now. I look forward to your insights!

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By: zjg https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-538395 Mon, 11 Jul 2016 03:39:06 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-538395 Rachael — Just wondering if you are planning on continuing this series. I’m sure it’s awfully time-consuming, but I for one have found it to be literally one of the most interesting pieces of religious blogging I have seen in a long time. Just a small note of encouragement there. And from an entirely selfish perspective, I’m now finally caught up to where you left off here in the book and would love to hear your thoughts on the rest. Thanks!

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-538056 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 15:47:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-538056 Just to add, since I didn’t mention the moral order that is of course Taylor’s focus. (And I fully agree the tensions you see in Mormon thought on things like women’s roles)

The bias in Mormon thought (and this flows through both the Brigham Young styled line of theology and the more Orson Pratt styled line) is of God as an engineer. That is God and even ethics really is conceived much more in modern terms. That’s true even if one could strongly argue much that Joseph restored, such as the endowment, goes back to a different conception of ordering. When we think morals, we think in terms of what it does.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-538055 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 15:44:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-538055 If finally got caught up Rachel. (I broke down and got the Audible version so I could listen while I worked – I just never could find enough time to read)

Chapter 4 in particular was fascinating for me. Especially because when I was younger I found the evolution of how society interpreted time so interesting. The place where Judaism, Greek philosophy and then Christianity mixed and merged to produce what allows for secular time is both important as an epoche in human history but also for understanding contemporary approaches to time. I found Taylor’s explanations pretty well done, being somewhat familiar with the topic already.

The whole flattening evolution seems as much tied to time as everything else. As Taylor notes it’s not just time that becomes purely horizontal. We no longer think of time primarily in terms of major events as they relate logically typically. Just in terms of their points on a time scale. However this is also true of space. From a contemporary Mormon perspective the relationship between the New Jerusalem, classic Jerusalem, eschatological Jerusalem, and Zion as the gathering place of the Saints is a great example of the shift Taylor speaks of. Our contemporary mind want’s to treat these as separate with only a distant secondary metaphoric or similarity function between them all. The pre-modern mind sees them as inherently closer.

Taylor’s constant emphasis on naive thinking gets at this. (For those who haven’t read it – he means naive in terms of how we instinctively think about topics and the categories we use without thinking) Our modern mind thinks of time and space as containers with the ordered place of the containers that of a number line. Think how we do time management, to borrow an example of Taylor’s. For a great “in between” shift I always think back to William Blake who ties London and the New Jerusalem together poetically. I think Blake is kind of a throwback to that pre-modern way of thinking.

And of course our modern way of thinking makes reading the Book of Mormon and New Testament more difficult because of how we order events. N. T. Wright makes this point about Paul. For Paul and most early Christians and Jews the events of the Old Testament aren’t merely history in the modern sense nor even metaphors but archetypes that are being repeated (especially against Roman occupation) I think when we read how Nephi uses Isaiah both to describe his narrative but also future narratives the same thing is going on. The Exodus pattern isn’t just a type setting or metaphor for Nephi but something much deeper in terms of how reality itself is ordered for him.

From a Mormon perspective what makes this all more difficult is noting how a lot of the rise of modernism (and this change in ordering) was necessary for the restoration. It’s not hard to find statements by early and contemporary GAs along those lines. As I read Taylor’s moves, I can’t help wonder if the Mormon stance is perhaps a tad more complex than what his more Catholic stance ends up being. I’m probably also saying that from a scientific perspective where the changes in ordering allowed science to be science. Which I think is an unambiguous good.

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By: rachael https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537995 Mon, 23 May 2016 01:51:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537995 or in other words, Catholicism holds onto a clearer boundary between the sacred and the profane, where the profane can erupt with the sacred at any moment, while Protestantism fades the boundary between them.

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By: rachael https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537993 Sun, 22 May 2016 23:14:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537993 Do you mean, is the sacralization of the quotidian not a uniquely Protestant phenomenon? One thing to consider is that the Protestant Reformation was not a novel movement; virtually every complaint and criticism had been voiced and addressed in previous (“catholic”) reform movements to instill more devotion in the daily life of average people. Taylor notes this, but sees the Protestant Reformation as distinct in how far it goes in rejecting different “spiritual gears.” Catholic celibacy and clerical life indicates that the highest spiritual fulfillment should transcend or go beyond ordinary vocations and daily life, and this is what Protestantism rejects. So in this sense, I think Catholicism didn’t sacralize the quotidian the same way Protestantism does; simplistically, I see Catholic reform movements trying to raise everyone up to monastic ideals, and Protestantism continues this trend more universally/comprehensively, but over time those ideals are “lowered” to reach what Taylor calls an equilibrium between our goals and our moral abilities. On a related note, perhaps, Catholicism sacralizes the quotidian but reverse, I think– in that the quotidian can erupt with divine forces at any moment (wooden crosses, holy statues, any object touched by divine forces). Protestantism excises spirit from matter but, if I understand Calvin correctly, diffuses divine presence throughout all of nature/creation.

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By: Terryl Lynn Givens https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537992 Sun, 22 May 2016 22:15:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537992 Clark
I dont want to hijack the thread, so email me and I will be happy to reply.
Terryl

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537945 Thu, 19 May 2016 06:32:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537945 Terryl, I wanted to finish chapter 4 before responding. (Almost there – just got busy with work)

I am curious as to what you mean by discontinuities with Protestant thought. It seemed to me that Joseph saw Protestantism as preparing the way for Mormonism, but it always seemed complex to me. Although there is that interesting June 16, 1844 record where he makes very interesting comments on Catholicism that might shock some who associate Catholicism with the great and abominable ala McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine.

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By: Terryl Givens https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537927 Wed, 18 May 2016 01:18:30 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537927 I am finding these summations cum analyses of Taylor really rich and helpful, especially your efforts to assess Mormonism’s place in his story. One question for you. I am struck by how oblivious we have been to the fundamental even radical discontinuities of Protestant thought with Mormonism in our efforts to see the Reformation as prelude to Restoration ( JS saw it working the opposite way). But the idea of sacralizing the quotidian certainly does resonate with JS’s conflation of heavenly and earthly things. Query: can you say more about whether that development is accurately portrayed by Taylor and may be a misreading of Catholic spirituality?

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By: Rachael Givens Johnson https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537784 Tue, 10 May 2016 02:34:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537784 Not at all, Clark– your comments are always thought-provoking and interesting. Thanks for reading along!

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537780 Mon, 09 May 2016 21:08:11 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537780 OK. I’ll setting aside tonight to try and catch up with reading. I just feel bad about being behind so my comments are always a tad too unfocused.

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By: Rachael Givens Johnson https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537779 Mon, 09 May 2016 21:01:01 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537779 Thanks, Clark! And yes, I’m up through Ch. 4 (I think Ch. 3 was implicitly covered in Ch 1, 2, and 4 so I didn’t bother with a post on that one). I’ll clarify better which chapters I’m covering in my posts.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/modern-sources-of-belonging-secular-age-round-5/#comment-537777 Mon, 09 May 2016 20:27:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35292#comment-537777 So glad you’re doing this series, Rachel. I’m going to hold off saying anything until I catch up to where you are with my reading. (You’re up through chapter 4, right?)

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