Comments on: 20th Century LDS Thought on Sexual Assault: Some Context https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: janis nuckolls https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537987 Sun, 22 May 2016 12:34:04 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537987 Thanks so much for this, Julie! I am a big fan of your care and sensitivity when interpreting language and thought.

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By: stephenchardy https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537782 Mon, 09 May 2016 23:53:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537782 Julie: Thank you for your characteristic generosity. You don’t flinch from the truth but your careful analysis is helpful. Thanks so much.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537781 Mon, 09 May 2016 21:15:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537781 I’d add that the other problem is the old centralization/correlation vs. decentralization. Ideally Bishops would follow the spirit and these egregious examples we hear about where victims are punished would never happen. I suspect they are the minority, but we have no real way of knowing that. However it’s precisely because of the Bishops who seem unable to follow the spirit in such matters that things get spelled out in the Handbook of Instructions. That is the Church because of abuses of individual Bishops and Stake Presidents cracks down on them giving less flexibility.

The problem is that if the Church is doing that then it really needs to update the handbook to reflect their current views. Note I’m saying this with no knowledge of how the handbook is phrased on such matters – I might be wrong about how it’s crafted. I’m more going by comments above along with the fact I think we’ve all met people with bad experiences with their Bishops. Added into the complexity of course is that even with correlation, training, and these handbooks, it’s not that uncommon for leaders to ignore them.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537778 Mon, 09 May 2016 20:33:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537778 I think there’s definitely some truth to that due to the conservative (small c) rate of change in the church. That said, I think overall there are some benefits to wanting unanimity among the brethren, having them largely be experienced people of the older generation (now baby boomers). Looking at how things develop in contemporary universities I think there are costs to going too fast as well.

That said I obviously in hindsight wish the Church got the revelation on priesthood in 1968 rather than 1978. While only 10 – 15 years after when most other churches liberalized on these matters I think it affected how the Church gets perceived. On the other hand I’m glad I’m not in a position to make such decisions and I definitely don’t have the big picture view the Lord has.

What I worry about honestly is that the apostles have so much to do just handling the administrative side of the church that they don’t have as much time to worry about such matters. That is this may reflect being swamped by practical administration matters which means such big pictures issues don’t get the attention they deserve until controversy flares up. Now I’m not sure that’s true. At least some of the brethren seem to be very aware of what’s going on socially. (Elder Oaks in particular) So I’m not sure I want to say they *are* overloaded with work. However I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find they are. This in turn would then tie in with scaling issues. Of course the usual solution to such matters is to adopt more of the structures of the corporate world – the very thing many want to get away from.

So like you I don’t have any answers and feel myself glad I don’t have to supply answers. I am confident the brethren are looking at the issue and seeking the spirit. As I think these are places change is overdue.

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By: EBK https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537776 Mon, 09 May 2016 20:25:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537776 Clark,
I’m with you on the idea that these statements are reflections of the larger culture. The 1960’s weren’t exactly a super woman friendly time. I think my hang up is in the fact that the church as an institution (and a lot of the culture behind it) seem to be so much slower to change that everywhere else. We end up prolonging hurt that has been done away with (or at least reduced) in most other spheres. How do we fix that? I’m not sure I have any answers.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537775 Mon, 09 May 2016 15:55:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537775 I think the focus should always be healing. That is bringing people back through the atonement.

What I think sometimes happens is people confuse issues of healing/sanctifying from issues of retribution and punishment. They’re focused on making sure the appropriate level of punishment is made in acts regardless of consequences. While I can understand this drive (which frankly is throughout our western culture) it’s unfortunate to say the least when it gets the upper hand.

My sense, perhaps incorrect, is that the brethren of this era were making a drive to move the focus away from punishment concerns. I completely agree with you that it doesn’t sound compassionate. However I suspect in part that’s because the cultural views of America in the 1960’s were very incompassionate to say the least. It’s a sign of how far we’ve come as a culture that we worry about this. But clearly if the handbook hasn’t been significantly updated since then, it needs some updating. I suspect most bishops will follow the spirit and compassion. However we have the handbook because not all do that.

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By: EBK https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537774 Mon, 09 May 2016 15:39:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537774 In this context, the statements by the church sound much more compassionate than the law. But let’s keep in mind that they laws referred to determined whether an accused rapist went to jail or not. That law was not to determine punishment for the victim. Our legal system is set up in favor of those who have been accused. Our standard for compassion to victims should by miles and miles above our standard for proving an accused guilty. The fact that these statements give slightly more wiggle room to declare something a rape for the benefit of the victim only compared to declaring something a rape to put someone in prison, does not sound like a plethora of compassion to me.

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By: Simon K. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537768 Mon, 09 May 2016 04:53:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537768 Eliza, the Tribune article quotes from the current Church Handbook of Instructions. You may want to re-read the article if you missed it.

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By: jader3rd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537767 Mon, 09 May 2016 04:42:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537767 Great article Julie. Thanks for doing the digging.

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By: LBK https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537766 Mon, 09 May 2016 04:40:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537766 The words of recent Church leaders are very nice. However, the realities of the world may not change as fast as we would like. Look at the racism in Mormonism and the Unites States today. It is over 38 years since Blacks were “given” the Priesthood and nearly 53 years from the date Martin Luther King delivered his “I have a Dream speech,” But the evil is still with us.

I, unfortunately, had to deal with the reality of this a number of years after the two letters referred to were sent out. A young sister was raped by a relative. The Bishop had asked that it not be reported to authorities because it “would ruin the guys life.” The solution: he arranged for both the brother and sister receive psychological help from the the Church

The rapist stopped going after one session. as he said he did not need it. The sister, regretabbly, went for a month or two. She started to develop problems, the most obvious ones being low grades, inexplainable crying jags, and refusing to stay at home. She finally opened up to a Relief Society President about what the difficulty was. The supposed Shrink had virtually insisted she write a letter to her rapist asking forgiveness for doing whatever she supposedly did to entice him to assault her and for not taking her responsibility for the rape. Devastating.

I only got involved because the Relief Society President knew that through my job in the School District I might be able to help her obtain some good help. I was able to get her a well qualified rape therapist through the County. Part of her new therapy, pardon the expression, was “to get the hell out of Dodge.” She was able to move in with a relative in a nearby city, attend a new ward, c there and take the community college bus to finish her senior year at our school. She is now happily married living 600 miles away in Utah,

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By: Eliza https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537762 Mon, 09 May 2016 02:01:26 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537762 This provides useful context for why this advice would have been relevant and even useful in the era in which it was given. And yet…where is the counsel for our time? Why did the Trib. article have to go back more than 3 decades to find anything even remotely resembling an “official”statement on rape and culpability?
I appreciate the additional information, but the fact remains that it does not, in reality, improve our current situation. We are still actively revictimizing sexual assault survivors because of this counsel. I don’t want our leaders making decisions and passing judgements based on advice that may have seemed compassionate 30 years ago. We know now these attitudes are deeply flawed and inherently harmful. So, why haven’t they been updated, clearly and directly? We deserve better. While the Trib. article may not tell the “whole” story, it certainly captures the crux of the problem. Hopefully, the additional attention and scrutiny the article brings will finally motivate action. It would be decades overdue and can’t come too soon.

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By: FarSide https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537761 Mon, 09 May 2016 01:34:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537761 Thanks for this, Julie. I think a letter to the editor of the Tribune is in order.

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By: Mindy https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537758 Sun, 08 May 2016 22:05:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537758 I can’t find the link you’re referring to…where Elder Holland addressed the issue. Please provide.

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By: Caryn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537757 Sun, 08 May 2016 21:20:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537757 As a former Rape Recovery Center volunteer, I worked with youth in correctional facilities and schools. I discovered that many survivors of rape feel they are responsible for the rape and that many perpetrators believe their victims are responsible for the rape. This faulty thinking creates unspeakable suffering for rape survivors and allows perpetrators to rape without remorse.

My challenge was to help survivors realize they were not responsible for being raped and to help perpetrators recognize that they were. This work required respectful, open dialogue with youth. I observed some rapists eventually recognize that they had inflicted horrific suffering on someone who did not deserve nor want to be abused. I also saw rape victims reclaim their power when they realized that they did not deserve to be raped.

Rape survivors deserve and need the support of those they trust—whether it is family members, university officials, or clergymen—to help them recover. Often they need the help of skilled mental health professionals along with caring friends and family members. Recovery for rape survivors is often difficult and takes time, but it is possible.

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By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/20th-century-lds-thought-on-sexual-assault-some-context/#comment-537756 Sun, 08 May 2016 18:44:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35277#comment-537756 Before quoting Elder Holland, you wrote: “At any rate, Mormonism is–and should be–extremely hostile to rape culture.” My comment is true: There is nothing in “Mormon culture” that contributes to rape culture. There is nothing in the doctrine, teachings, or practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that contributes to rape culture. Rape is the action of individual persons who disregard the overwhelming cultural message that rape is wrong.

There may be some very few Latter-day Saint men who rape, but that is individuals making bad decisions. No act of rape can be blamed on any of the doctrines, teachings, or principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. To the degree any rape committed by a Latter-day Saint is the product of the rapist’s culture, it would have to be the rapist’s larger national or ethnic culture — even then, blaming culture is a stretch. Blame the individual, not his or her culture. Certainly, don’t blame the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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