Comments on: Converts per Missionary https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537891 Mon, 16 May 2016 19:17:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537891 Church growth was fairly high through most of the 20th century. In the 80’s you start seeing big drops in mainline Christianity. By the mid 90’s you start seeing a general drop and rise in the Nones. Interestingly the same phenomena took place in Canada but 10 years earlier. (The US increase in Nones ends up going a bit slower than American ones though)

While I think the shift does indeed get tied to generational shifts starting in the 90’s, it’s important to note that this takes time. Public views on say gay marriage really didn’t shift dramatically until the last 10 years. Which is a way of saying that I suspect this is part of the change – especially at the generational level. (20 – 30 year olds) But I personally am skeptical it’s a major fact. Although I’d hold off making judgements until the latest ARIS data gets released in a year or so.

The difficulty of course is that sects that are more positive towards issues of gender politics tend to be hemorrhaging members much faster than conservative sects. That’s been true since at least the early 80 but especially since the 90’s. So what people are interested in just isn’t Christianity period but a relatively loose and vague notion of spirituality.

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By: Robert Jones https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537890 Mon, 16 May 2016 01:16:38 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537890 My opinion is that it is more complicated. There is a decline in numbers of most mainstream churches. Additionally, competition is stiff. Baptists, Pentecost 7th Day Adventists … Are strong competitors. Overall the number of converts is not only falling on a per missionary basis, but on a per member basis. My belief is that something more fundamental will have to take place to change the growth trajectory. Bigotry, perceived fanaticism polygamy, the massacre at mountain meadows, the position on gays, certainly don’t help though.

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By: Kerry https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537885 Sun, 15 May 2016 17:04:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537885 Agree

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537316 Fri, 22 Apr 2016 03:42:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537316 Robert (31.1) those are some good points. Again I’m loath to predict too much as so much depends upon how quickly the rest of the world modernizes. If Latin America becomes wealthy as is quite possible if they improve their governments and economies – for all of Mexico’s & Brazil’s problems their GDPs have increased significantly the past 20 years. Then the current cost imbalance changes significantly.

Africa, where it’s quite possible we’ll have our next growth spurt unless we figure out Asia, will likely be poor for a while. But I could easily see the day within my lifetime where there are far more tithing dollars from outside the US than inside.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537315 Fri, 22 Apr 2016 03:38:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537315 I’m just dubious of any long term extrapolation. As my stats teacher hammered into me: for every trend there is an end. In particular I don’t think we’re taking advantage of Asia as we should as we’ve not really figured out how to proselytize non-Christians well. It’s unclear whether the US and to a lesser extent Canada is following Europe’s secularization or doing something new. (I suspect we’ll get a polarization rather than a real secularization – although a lot of that depends upon immigration trends) It’s not clear what’s going to happen with Latin America yet either. Africa is doing well but I’d be loath to extrapolate current numbers there.

Of course while I feel somewhat informed about Canada and the US and perhaps even Europe (where I’m sure we’ll shrink) the rest of the world I feel completely unable to have much of an opinion.

For the US, I suspect we’ll match growth in the future. That is as the growth rate of the US decreases we’ll tend to decrease as well. That assumes no big immigration surges as in the 90’s. (Although we caught up with that one too)

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By: Robert Jones https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537314 Thu, 21 Apr 2016 23:56:52 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537314 Thanks for your analysis. See my earlier comments. The math seems fine though the death rate you use seems to high to me. But everything is ballpark figures. From the logistic equation I got numbers around 18 to 20 million for quasi peak total membership with child of record keeping the numbers increasing for a while at linear growth. By my calculations Death rate + resignations only comes out to be between 0.006 to 0.008 from church reported numbers. I believe this under reported. I’ve heard they don’t assume someone has died until the reach the age of 110. The steady state value you provide does not give.a time prediction. But my analysis indicates that as early as 2025 we may consider we have reached the quasi steady state population. Note the cost per baptism is up to about $2000 a head. There may be a point where the mission program cost per baptism may be too high. Without a fundamental change I concur that total church population will probably not surpass 50 million or perhaps even 20 million. The per capita growth between 2014-2015 fell by about 11%. Doubling the loss from 2013-2014. So membership growth is very slow. In fact considering inactivity one might consider it to be negative. Thanks for listening

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By: DWaters https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537313 Thu, 21 Apr 2016 23:03:16 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537313 A back-of-the-envelope calculation for the maximum number of active members at current growth rates: the church will grow until the death rate among active members = the growth rate of new active members.

Death rate = 0.9% (approximately equal to world death rate)
Growth rate = (Overall activity rate) * (Children of Record + Converts per year)
Overall activity rate = 0.33 (generous estimate)
Children of Record = 150,000 per year (generous estimate)
Convert baptisms = 300,000 per year

So, 0.009 * (MAX STEADY STATE ACTIVE MEMBERS) = (0.33) * (150,000 + 300,000)

Solving gives MAX STEADY STATE ACTIVE MEMBERS = 16.8 million
Relatedly, the Max for TOTAL MEMBERS ~ 50 million

I welcome corrections on my math – (Clark, please feel free to edit out any mistakes!) Given that active membership is currently about 5 million, we will continue growing for many years to come, but will be unlikely to grow beyond 50 million total members (or 17 million active members), based on current trajectories.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537311 Thu, 21 Apr 2016 19:42:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537311 Why would member participation change during this period? I’m of course very aware of factors I’m not aware of undermining the analysis. But again when there’s an obvious big factor so strongly correlated other factors have to be pretty significantly.

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By: Ben Peters https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537310 Thu, 21 Apr 2016 17:59:21 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537310 Very helpful, Clark. An admittedly tl;dr question: might the constant convert rates be more parsimoniously explained not by a change in missionary numbers but by the constant degree (or lack thereof) in member involvement in the conversion process over this period?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537309 Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:43:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537309 Joseph, I think 2013 and 2014 are more or less the same in terms of efficiency and baptisms and fairly close in number of missionaries. The key argument is when the effect takes place in 2013. Does the roll out only take place in fall, undermining the thesis that it’s immature missionaries makign the effect? Or is it something else? To my eyes the key event is 2015 with the significant drop in the number of converts despite a drop of 10,000 missionaries. Again though the question is what the figures would be like per month – we just don’t have that level of detail.

While we don’t have the data to establish it I think there is a narrative that explains the data well. Not everyone will agree with it of course. That is that as the immature missionaries come out in 2013 they are spread among companionships with the older and also experienced missionaries. Mixed in with the 2013 are older new missionaries. I think the drop is partially to not having enough work for the influx of missionaries. (According to many reports the western US got a disproportionate number of them and they were primarily used for reactivation efforts)

A plausible explanation is that the first half of 2013 was more like 2012, perhaps with a slight drop in efficiency (.20 – .30) and then the second half of 2012 was extremely disruptive dropping efficiency a great deal. The average ends up giving us 3.41. In 2014 the disruption is adjusted for and the efficiency improves a bit, but not back nearly to trend. This then persists through 2014 and 2015.

Of course the test of this will be next year’s data. If it’s about the same for 2016 then my thesis is correct.

The argument that there is a fixed number of potential converts and throwing more missionaries at it doesn’t help isn’t born out by the data I think. After all we have to explain that big drop of 40,000 converts in 2015 as well as the increases of 10,000 for years 2012, 2013, and 2014.

The main argument, as I see it, against my thesis is that 2012 is the key year. That’s before the change in missionaries but already there was a drop of 10,000 converts despite an increase of around 3,000 missionaries. In that year the efficiency drops at twice the rate of prior years as well. I agree that’s a possibility but I’m not sure what’s special about 2012 and I still don’t think that explains 2015.

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By: Joseph Stanford https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537302 Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:06:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537302 Clark (20), I am still puzzled by your comment that making the change in age eligibility for missionaries has had any effect on baptisms. Looking at your graph of convert baptisms per year, I think the 2013 increase and 2014 drop may be within statistical equivalency, and they certainly aren’t anywhere near as large as the change in number of missionaries. So the # of converts per missionary dropped, even after accounting for the temporary artifact of 2013 (21). A lot more missionaries, about the same number of baptisms. The same number of baptisms simply got spread out over more missionaries.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537289 Wed, 20 Apr 2016 16:23:10 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537289 Thanks Mike. I was just about to post a link to that. If you are Matt Martinich then I’ve long been a fan of your blog. I definitely agree with his/your view that little of the decrease in baptisms is due to the internet but is tied to larger trends of secularization.

The point about record growth in stakes and wards is worth considering too. While it’s not as good as having activity statistics for baptized members, I suspect it’s a loose proxy for activity statistics. I am touching on that in my next demographics post.

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By: Mike M. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537288 Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:43:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537288 Jana Reiss has a short piece related to this conversation.
http://religionnews.com/2016/04/19/mormon-growth-slows-to-its-lowest-level-since-1937-heres-why-thats-great-news/

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537287 Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:22:36 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537287 Like others mentioned, I think the ideal statistics are self-identification figures, meeting attendance, and activity two years after baptism. All of those I’m sure the Church has. Some of those we can get for the US via ARIS and Pew studies. I’m going to try and alternative between analytic posts and more scriptural posts. But I do have one partially written that will get into these other issues.

As for right reasons, I think ultimately it’s about helping other people. I baptized far fewer people than my friends, but I saw huge differences in the lives of some of the people I baptized. At least half of the people I baptized are still active now after 20 years. (I was just contacted on Facebook recently by one convert)

That said it can sometimes be discouraging looking at effects. When I was on my mission in Louisiana we had great success in the black community. One ward went from basically no blacks to being half black just in the time I was there. Yet I see the Pew data and only 1% of the Church is black. That suggests to me that despite some success in the late 80’s that overall we as a Church have hit a wall. In my opinion there really are many people ready for the gospel but we may have to modify both how we do things but also perhaps to a degree how we do our meetings. While I tend to look askance at complaining about a “Wasatch Front cultural church” I do think one size fits all for all communities can be a problem.

All that said I have been impressed with how the Church does pay attention. They seem like they’ve become far more sophisticated in things. For instance some of David Stewart’s suggestions at Cumorah.com from several years ago have been adopted. Much faster than I’d have suspected. We had the missionaries over for dinner a couple of weeks ago (hard to do in Provo given the number of members) and I was impressed at how they are using technology. (They had iPads to show presentations) I think there was more than a little room for improvement (the speakers on iPads are insufficiently loud for instance – they should carry portable speakers) But I’m impressed at how the church is being nimble on these issues.

I just find these demographic topics fascinating. I’ve been interested it ever since the first batch of analysis in the 90’s started coming out. As I said I found those very questionable. (Extrapolating exponential growth in unrealistic ways back then) Even though I’ve not been blogging as much the past years, I do often comment on demographic issues.

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By: Jonathan Green https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/converts-per-missionary/#comment-537286 Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:22:08 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35118#comment-537286 But using somebody else’s blog to cause inter-blog friction is kind of irritating. Maybe you could use the comment section here to address the topic at hand, and save your thoughts about other Mormon blogs for a more relevant post?

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