Comments on: Calling All Millennials https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Joseph Stanford https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537303 Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:32:46 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537303 @17 and others: Maybe millennials just don’t believe in the 14th article of faith?
http://margiesmessages.com/fourteen.html

]]>
By: Toria https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537283 Wed, 20 Apr 2016 03:54:03 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537283 Perhaps I’m just relating millennials to secularism, but I don’t think it has as much to do with how social or outgoing a ward is as much as it is the attitude that millennials bring to socializing. Millienials social circles are more and more niche. They are more easily able to find groups to geek out with in their random hobbies and so wether or not they “click” with people in their ward is starting to be less relevant. Millennials also compartmentalize their social groups more frequently and easily. This contributes to a compartmentalization of Mormon social activity from religious experience. This also contributes to a “pickier” attitude for lack of a better word. There are so many options to choose from that they can be choosey. While secularism affects all ages in that it gives everyone the option of even thinking that they have a choice, millennials, having grown up with this choice, are finding it easier to act on the choice.

I’m not sure how this attitude applies to more or less densely populated Mormon areas. But from my own experience, when I lived in the midwest and was in young women’s, Mormonism played a much bigger role socially in that it took up a lot more of my time. Going to a Wednesday activity took 2 hours longer since girls from all around needed to be picked up and dropped off, they couldn’t just carpool with each other. Gathering at church actually filled a Mormon social void because it was the only place we saw other Mormons. In my current area with lots of Mormons there is a huge push to makes stakes and wards smaller. I’m curious to see how this plays out and if it exacerbates or relieves some of these issues.

]]>
By: Martin James https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537279 Wed, 20 Apr 2016 01:01:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537279 Jettboy,
“What I got out of this: Millennials are lazy, self-important, anti-social, know it all’s who don’t take personal responsibility.”
Your screed was awesome! It deserves a spot in the museum of natural history but those are obsolete so no one would visit your exhibit after age 8. It is not that you are wrong, it is just that the words you use don’t really have a meaning. Is being self-important bad? Is personal responsibility different from responsibility? Is it anti-social to text all day? Do you have a lazy-boy?

]]>
By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537276 Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:37:10 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537276 Again I’m far from convinced this is a millennial thing. I think it’s often been true especially in wards where some people don’t really “click” with others. A very long problem is that a significant number of wards just are as socially outgoing as they could be. Yet in other wards you see everyone engaging with informal support systems – often now leveraging social media like Facebook or the like.

When you grow up in wards where the boundaries are large – often spanning metropolitan areas – then you simply get a different dynamic than say the Wasatch Front where wards are a few blocks and you simply see other people from your ward daily. The dynamic shifts. For instance where I grew up I was the only Mormon in a student body of 1200 kids. How on earth would there be the dynamic compared to a ward where most of the kids go to the same school and same extracurricular activities?

]]>
By: Toria https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537270 Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:41:34 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537270 I’m a millennial. I was raised in a very active home and looked forward to one day having a family and being entrenched in church life. My parent’s complete social circle was their ward. My mom was always busy with things like road shows and my dad had meetings constantly. I saw my parents as being busy and fulfilled in church life. Fast forward 20 years and millennials just don’t socialize like that. We are more likely to move around, change jobs, keep in touch with old friends who don’t live by us and find support from them. We have several different social circles we run around in. Our kids are not taught morals simply by contrasting “the world” with “zion”, but have to navigate the nuances among various social circles with Mormon being just one of them.
When I first moved into a highly Mormon area with two young kids I tried so hard to engrain myself in my ward expecting Mormonism to be my world, my religion, and also my support system. I quickly learned that it just isn’t like that. My support systems are not the people I go to church with, it’s the moms in my kids preschool and the moms I volunteer with in the community. There is very little overlap with the people in my ward. I had a very elevated view of the church growing up, I saw it fulfilling more needs than a religion can, but now that I have brought it down to the way social groups work among millennials, I see church for what it is, a religion – a set of theological beliefs and rituals that help pass those beliefs on to the next generation. It is a lot easier for me to see the shortcomings of the church in this light. I see how my daughters get subtle messages about boys programs being more important than theirs and I see how they are taught that they should aspire to being stay at home moms. I also see the “one true church” message harped on and I know it’s not going to make sense to my kids in the culture they are growing up in. At the end of the day I’m Mormon, I love the theology and I’m not going anywhere, but I long for those good old days when all the moms stayed home and raised each other’s kids and carpooled to Wednesday Primary and all the neighborhood kids did the same sports and ran between houses coming home just for dinner. That kind of tribe just doesn’t exist in today’s fast paced world. Take away the tribe (through no fault of the church, that’s just how millennials work) and you are going to lose some folks.

]]>
By: Observer https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537246 Mon, 18 Apr 2016 01:32:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537246 Agreed.

I’d probably add general attitudes about “authority” and the accompanying fundamentalism and literalism, and teachings about LGBT individuals.

This was a significant factor for me: One of my children or grandchildren could be LGBT. I view LDS thought and culture as toxic to LGBT teens. I’m willing to step outside of the faith, if only to provide a safe path out for any friends or family who also need to take that road.

I write that without any animus at all. These are my genuine thoughts on the topic.

]]>
By: Christina https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537245 Mon, 18 Apr 2016 00:38:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537245 I can only give anecdotal evidence about my own experience as a millennial (age 27) and my husband’s (age 30). In my case, I struggle with the idea of absolute truth. I grew up in a post-modern world where “truth” is contextual or grey at best. Sometimes it’s appropriate to use Einstein’s theory of relativity when solving a math problem, sometimes it’s not. By the same token, approaches to spirituality are sometimes right, sometimes they’re not, depending on the situation or the person. I don’t understand this “one way only.” I also struggle with the place of women in LDS society. At my work, I am able to be a leader and I see a way to progress my skills and my understanding while adding responsibility and my coworkers treat me this way as well. At church there is no such thing. Any responsibility and growth available for women comes through bearing and raising children, of which I have none.

For my spouse, he has issues with historicity claims and not finding church as a community-minded or service-oriented institution to belong to. He feels there is not a significant emphasis on Christ and a heavy emphasis on preserving the institution for the institution’s sake.

As evidenced by mine and my husband’s situation, there are many and varied reasons why religiosity may be declining among my generation.

]]>
By: Chris https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537244 Sun, 17 Apr 2016 23:54:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537244 I’m glad the church as currently organized works for you. It doesn’t for many. But thanks for he condescending comment. Always good to know we can count on members to blame young people for dating to voice concern over certain aspects of church life.

]]>
By: Greg https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537243 Sun, 17 Apr 2016 23:14:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537243 “millennials now have been passed the ball and they are dropping it while still blaming those who gave it to them.”

Much of what could make Sunday services more spiritual and edifying would need to involve macro structural changes that can only come from the top down. Even smaller ward changes would need to come from the bishop, and very few Millennials are now in the highest positions in wards and in the church.

“‘feeding others’ is how we ‘feed ourselves’ in the Church.”

Our youth program contradicts this statement. Between Sunday lessons, seminary, Wednesday activities, girls camp, youth conference, institute, and so on, youth are surrounded by opportunities that are designed to feed them and provide them spiritual experiences. And yet they are asked to do little to nothing in return. They are fed without feeding.

Once one becomes a Latter-Day Saint adult, you’re supposed to not need any of these spiritual experiences anymore, and turn entirely from the fed to the feeder. But it’s not a coincidence that most people’s most spiritual experiences happened in their youth. They shouldn’t have to feed on those vapors for the next 50 years. The need for spiritual experiences continues until you die. (And yes, you can create them for yourself, but something special happens in communal activities.) As a friend once put it, “Institute is wasted on the young.”

“A Church built on social interaction not valuing friendship is laughable.”

This statement is laughable. Let’s look at the structure of services — you go to Sacrament meeting, and need to keep quiet while listening to speaker; you go to Sunday school and need to keep quiet (besides making comments about the lesson) in order to listen to the teacher; you go to Priesthood/RS, where you need to keep quiet (except for making comments about the lesson); then you go home. There’s a few minutes of socializing between meetings (which many say is their favorite part of church), but that’s it for Sunday. On Wednesday nights you’re busy executing activities for the youth. Otherwise there’s socializing at the occasional ward activity, and a few minutes interspersed into your leadership meetings. But about 90% of church is not built on socializing at all. It is ancillary at best.

To feel a hunger for friendship and socialization that extends beyond passing and stolen moments isn’t hard to wrap one’s mind around. It’s a fundamental human need. Nearly every other church provides opportunities to meet together in Wednesday evening Bible studies and dinner groups, or morning prayer groups, while our church has no such spiritual/social opportunities. I feel most bad for men; men in other churches often have close groups where they can feel the power of fraternity and support. The idea (though its potential is baked into our theology) is foreign to Mormon men, who feel they must spend all their free time with family. As I once heard someone put it, “Mormon men are the loneliest men I’ve ever known.”

]]>
By: Mark D. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537240 Sun, 17 Apr 2016 16:57:02 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537240 Some things – like simple coordination – can done through email, other things not so much. Any process where people are allowed to participate in making decisions cannot effectively be done through email. For that you need an actual meeting of some kind.

There are members who feel frustrated that the opinions of members of the RS and priesthood quorums simply do not matter. For better or worse, leaders make command decisions about matters which do not implicate the fundamental doctrines of the church without even asking the opinion of those who will be directly affected. There is no consultative or deliberative process in the church. The church is run by dictates, and the opinions of members – no matter how worthy or how faithful – simply do not count.

Although we still have a vestige of common consent and congregationalism in the church, in practice there is no such thing. So why exactly do we have meetings of priesthood “quorum” or a relief “society” if the opinions of the members of the quorum or the society are never sought out? Or the quorums or the societies never asked to give their consent to anything except as an empty formality?

Although there are serious potential issues with subsidiarity, congregationalism, or common consent in a church, the opposite has serious downsides too. It makes members feel like they are not members, but rather more like subjects or volunteers. Subjects whose opinions are not heard tend to resent their superiors. Volunteers whose opinions are not heard tend to walk away. To be a member in any meaningful sense of the term your opinion must actually matter.

Nowhere is this more than obvious when members refer to “the church” as an administrative organization separate and distinct from its own members. Clearly the body of Christ has a head, but it is the body of Christ that is the church and household of God. The body has members, and it seems like a pretty dim version of eternity to consider exaltation and membership in the kingdom of heaven as absolute subjection to what might for lack of a better term be considered an inspired despotism. At what point along the way is a member’s opinion going to actually matter? The perfect day, and not before?

]]>
By: Jettboy https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537236 Sun, 17 Apr 2016 15:36:02 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537236 What I got out of this: Millennials are lazy, self-important, anti-social, know it all’s who don’t take personal responsibility. Sorry Greg as the one who most put things into words, but your list doesn’t reflect badly on the Church for me. It reflects badly on the generation claiming the status of Millennials. Here are a few reasons why:

1 and 2, Not the Church’s fault at this point (other than the mommy part that I can understand better) since the wards and stakes by birth year indicate more than half the local leadership consist of millennials. By the logic of the bullet points, millennials now have been passed the ball and they are dropping it while still blaming those who gave it to them. Besides “feeding others” is how we “feed ourselves” in the Church. There is no individual spiritual nourishment without service in Mormon theology. This gets into the whole selfish thing that the “self-help” and “find yourself” false doctrines have produced.

3. Not sure where to go with this one. I think the Church has recognized this and there has been a few General Conference talks about too many meetings without substance. But I am afraid what the Church has prioritized to replace them will not satisfy the narcissist “what about me” generation.

4. The feeling overwhelmed with callings is nothing new. Was around with my parents and probably been around since Joseph Smith sent the first Quorum of the Twelve off on missions. However, your explanation of family dynamics seems an awful lot like self-imposed problems. The Church warned of working mothers and it was quickly dismissed. There wasn’t even a shift (in the equality department) to maybe working mother and stay at home father. Nope, both genders had to be working to find some kind of status or satisfaction. I understand the difficulties of modern economics, but that isn’t the Church’s fault. Even the stay at home moms usually have resources available to alleviate some of the stress if they weren’t so darn stubborn and independent minded.

5. A Church built on social interaction not valuing friendship is laughable. Again, its the millennials fault they can’t make social connections with everyday situations. They need “clubs” or “hang-outs,” where they can be the life of the party or among the popular folks. It used to be introverts had trouble remaining members and now its extroverts. I just can’t get my head around so many contradictions.

When I was a teenager my interpretation of Scripture brought me to believe that my generation was the last one before the punishments of the last days leading to the Second Coming. Growing out of that I recognized so many unfulfilled prophecies that needed to happen first. Now, I look around at today’s society and quickly believe there is maybe one more generation left. The gentiles are going down a path that isn’t pleasant.

]]>
By: Chris https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537232 Sat, 16 Apr 2016 23:16:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537232 Hey Rob,

Many of the church’s values do resonate with us, at least in the abstract. It’s the implementation and culture that often do not resonate. And since implementation and culture seem to drive weekly services, they can greatly affect the perceived value of active participation.

For example, family is important to us. And I believe our theology is potentially expansive enough to include all types of families. But we don’t. Instead, we often treat families that differ from the 1950s era model as worthy of less respect and dignity, and I think doing so is immoral. As is the exclusion of some families that don’t fit our definition of family from meaningful (or any) participation in the church. Hearing repeated veiled and not so veiled attacks against gay marriage and the like, gets old fast. And it’s not something I feel comfortable teaching my children

We teach that our women are daughters of God with divine potential. Yet, our culture (and depending on how literally you take some of our scriptures and teachings, perhaps our doctrine) often treats women as somehow lesser than men. I don’t want my daughter to learn, either through explicit teachings or implicitly through church culture, that she limited or less than her brother. I want her to understand that she can go as far as her talents and work ethic will take her. And I don’t want my son to learn he is inherently better than any woman because he happens to be male. I want him to respect women, to be able to work with women, and see them as his equal.

We also teach of the importance of caring for the poor and the need to come together to create Zion. Yet, at least in most places I have lived, there is a strong conservative political bent at the ward level. As a result, lessons are often peppered with the comments regarding the godliness of naked capitalism and the dangers of those who advocate for anything to left of mitt Romney. To those of us left of center, this rhetoric can be less than welcoming.

We care about meaningful Sunday services. Our scripture and history could make for seriously interesting lessons. But most teachers have neither the time nor knowledge to really prepare such lessons. They do the best they can, with varying degrees of success.

I suppose this is a long winded way of saying we often feel the benfit of weekly attendance is pretty meager. And often, the costs, can be significant.

]]>
By: RobF https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537221 Sat, 16 Apr 2016 13:49:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537221 Chris, I would be interested in hearing more about the family values you have that don’t seem to resonate at church or how your world view seems different.

]]>
By: Chris https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537204 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 19:45:03 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537204 Millenial here (born 1982). I’m a BYU grad, married in the temple, have a couple of kids–basically the type who would historically be likely to remain an active Mormon. Yet, ibfind myself drifting more towards inactivity. I think this is likely due to a number of factors:

1) the church experience doesn’t seem meaningful or especially useful. The kids like nursery, but they would be just as happy to play at the park. Hearing members give well-intentioned but often boring sermons doesn’t provide much value. Nor does babysitting other memebers’ children in nursery or primary. We seem to have better, happier, and more fulfilling days on the Sunday’s we ditch church for other activities.

2) the church’s concerns (social issues and political concerns) just don’t resonate with my family. Our world view is just different.

3) I have serious doubts that leadership has any special insight into god’s mind. And without that, it can be struggle to regularly attend meetings that often fail to address issues that matter to us.

4) the things that really keeps us coming back are a) the kids seem to like it, and b) we have friends at church. If it weren’t for those things, we’d probably be gone.

]]>
By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/04/calling-all-millennials/#comment-537198 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:54:45 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35100#comment-537198 Andrew (15) by quasi-religious I mean less organized weekly meetings than simply loose groups with enforced moral codes. You see this especially in marxist groups or more recently with the rise of identity groups with strong speech and behavior codes. I think the organized aspect is less significant, although clearly that is a factor. However even among Christian religion Evangelicals have long been less inclined to formal organized religion. So Mormons are getting hit by the double whammy of competing movements and a disinclination towards authority/organization as significant.

However again let me emphasize this only represents one part of the Nones. An other subgroup isn’t attracted to any group participation. A lot of studies have noted that those who move to the Nones simply are less interested in social participation in general. There’s a certain disengageness that relates to participation in politics, sports teams, extra-curricular activities and so forth. Whether that’s tied to the internet allows those tendencies to be manifest in a different fashion or not isn’t clear.

One big problem of how Millennials are talked about in the press is to paint with too broad a brush. (This happened previously with Gen-X too) There’s a lot of diversity within a generation in a country as large as the US. We can talk about differences in aggregate but few fit the generalizations exactly.

Regarding Greg’s (17) point about meetings, I think a lot of people have reacted like that. And there definitely are generational gaps there. The last time I was in an EQ presidency though we did everything with email, texting, and Google Docs. It reduces a lot of meetings. Also the Church has long advocated having as few meetings as possible. (Elder Packer gave quite a few talks on this) It’s just that some individuals seem to love meandering meetings.

While the Church could definitely do better, I actually think it’s provided quite a few amazing resources in the past few years to reduce meetings and make things more efficient. I notice in our ward that nearly everyone under 50 uses tablets or phones for their scriptures, to use LDS Tools and so forth. Having internet in most chapels helps tremendously.

I just wish we’d get some more significant meeting reform since I think the current system just isn’t terribly ideal. I’d love shorter sacrament meetings and perhaps a change in how Sunday School/Primary is done.

]]>