Comments on: A Closer Look at D & C 1:38 https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Julie M. Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536697 Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:57:11 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536697 My apologies for not monitoring this thread better over the last few days. I should have been moderating Brad L’s comments since a discussion of Mormon epistemology is not relevant to this thread.

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536696 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:43:41 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536696 Brad L: ” It should be as clear as day to any lucid mind and a desire for objectivity that the LDS church leaders find past positions on blacks and the priesthood that were declared as doctrine to be in error. ”

Where have you seen me say otherwise? Can you quote me? On the contrary, I can quote me saying exactly that.

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536695 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:42:22 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536695 Brad L: ” I suspect that you might be living in a fantasy world in which there are somehow no contradictions in the LDS standard works and the words of the LDS church leaders over time. ”

You may suspect as you wish. You, of course, have no evidence for this supposition. It is formed entirely out of your own prejudices and imaginations and as such says much more about you than about me.

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536694 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:40:56 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536694 Brad L: “I’m sorry but your answers are incomprehensible.”

I am sorry that you are not able to comprehend the answers, but I assure you they are comprehensible. The fault is not in the answers.

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536693 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:39:41 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536693 Orangganjil: “Authority directly from God -> makes one a servant ->”

There is no strong isomorphism here from the scriptures.

1. One may have authority from God and yet fail as a servant.
2. One may be a servant and have no authority to guide and direct the Church or others.

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536692 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:37:29 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536692 Orangganjil: “Ecclesiastical position -> makes one a servant -> thus authority from God”

I am sorry if it seems that way. I did not mean to make such a suggestion. What I was declaring was this:

Restoration through a Prophet (Joseph Smith) —> Priesthood Authority Passed on —> Authority from God.

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536691 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:34:35 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536691 Orangganjil “Just because someone sits in a chair doesn’t mean they are a servant or have authority from God. ”

This is true — again, as the LDS Church has taught since its inception. One must be called of God as was Aaron, to have that authority.

Are you unaware of this?

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536690 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:33:12 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536690 Orangganjil “how is this argument any different than the claimed authority of the Catholic Church or the Jewish leaders fighting against Jesus?”

In terms of *claims* it is no different that what the Catholic Church claims. We have long ago admitted that both the LDS Church and the Catholic Church claim the same authority. The difference occurs when you go past the claims. In the case of the Catholic Church, they erred in thinking that they inherited the authority from an already dead Church. In the case of the LDS Church we have the authority from Jesus and His Apostles as restored.

As for the Jewish leaders, they never claimed any such authority and so it is far different.

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By: orangganjil https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536689 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:19:42 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536689 Charles said, “But as for leading us astray, when they speak as prophets they are in authority and they have revelation. Having authority is when ‘Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same’ and it is when ‘If they reject you, they reject me’. This is true even if they are fallible and subject to error. However, the revelation part helps prevent that and if they persist the Lord will remove them.”

Charles, how is this argument any different than the claimed authority of the Catholic Church or the Jewish leaders fighting against Jesus? It is the “we have authority so we speak for God” argument. Just because someone sits in a chair doesn’t mean they are a servant or have authority from God. They may have authority within a church, but not necessarily from God himself.

You seem to make a claim that can be illustrated thus:
Ecclesiastical position -> makes one a servant -> thus authority from God

I think, judging from the examples in the scriptures, it would look exactly the opposite:
Authority directly from God -> makes one a servant -> possibly a specific position (plenty of servants had no ecclesiastical position)

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By: christiankimball https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536688 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 18:05:48 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536688 The “follow the prophet” or “not led astray” or “voice of my servants” meme appears most strongly at times of controversy. The beginning and end of polygamy. Matters of race. Issues of marriage. I find it interesting that more often than not these are times of change, so that the underlying message is “listen to the prophet *now* even though different than the prophet *then*.” That’s a complicated message that will forever be itself controversial.

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By: Brad L https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536687 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:41:55 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536687 Charles, I’m sorry but your answers are incomprehensible. I suspect that you might be living in a fantasy world in which there are somehow no contradictions in the LDS standard works and the words of the LDS church leaders over time. It should be as clear as day to any lucid mind and a desire for objectivity that the LDS church leaders find past positions on blacks and the priesthood that were declared as doctrine to be in error. Your attempts to deny this ignore important facts and statements.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536685 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:09:40 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536685 “Clark, the point is if you can easily be deceived by personal revelation and not know that you are, then what is the point in seeking it? ”

That seems a very odd argument. First, how easily you are deceived seems to depend upon the type of answer you receive, just as it does for any act of coming to knowledge. When as a student writing exams some answers I was confident in and others I was not. Some subjects I had more skill in than others. The places I was more skillful I had, because of that reliability, more trust in my answers when I felt them correct.

Now some people trust in answers they get when they haven’t really developed the skills they need. This is a fairly common topic in church. The old analogy was a radio with faulty tubes, but since almost no one knows that technology anymore you don’t hear it as much.

I rather suspect some people are much better at receiving and recognizing revelation than I am. Some are worse. The trick is in trying to follow the spirit and learning to discern. It’s both a practical skill but also tied to your spirituality/righteousness and the importance of what you’re praying for. Even at times when I was most spiritual some things (often warnings) were very clear whereas other things weren’t. And if I was angry or had done something wrong, then obviously my ability to discern or even get answers was significantly reduced.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536684 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:03:34 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536684 Charles of course the question is what lead astray means. Some take it as a kind of near infallibility whereas others take it as screwing up enough that there’s no full apostasy and threat to salvation.

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536683 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:37:03 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536683 Brad L: “Charles, here is a letter from Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery sometime in April 1836:”

This is pretty much irrelevant to the conversation here. I am not going to address the rest of your comment for that reason.

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By: Charles https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/03/a-closer-look-at-d-c-138/#comment-536682 Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:35:48 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34861#comment-536682 Exiled :”why should we believe that fallible humans cannot make mistakes and therefore lead us astray?”

This is actually two questions.

There is no reason to believe fallible humans cannot make mistakes. If you have seen me claim otherwise, I would like to see where you saw me do so.

But as for leading us astray, when they speak as prophets they are in authority and they have revelation. Having authority is when “Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same” and it is when “If they reject you, they reject me”. This is true even if they are fallible and subject to error. However, the revelation part helps prevent that and if they persist the Lord will remove them.

Hence the trust and faith is not in the men but in the Lord. The Lord will see to it that we are not led astray and has, in times past, taken care of cases where errors were leading us off.

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