Comments on: A Rhetoric of Indirection https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Dale https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535685 Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:44:37 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535685 Nathan:

As a member of a stake presidency, I can say you describe beautifully exactly what we try to do with all. Thanks for noticing!

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By: Christie Frandsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535657 Wed, 16 Dec 2015 21:08:46 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535657 I am so late coming to this party, but just wanted to add my hearty AMEN to everything you wrote, Julie (and Ardis!) – and plead with you to somehow get this essay into the hands of the higher ups at CES. I am not expecting that any changes will be made, but when scriptural illiteracy in the Church becomes epidemic and fatal, at least they cannot say they weren’t warned. You are a treasure in the Church, Julie. I vote for you to be in charge of Church Education :)

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By: True Blue https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535610 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 06:10:56 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535610 Not surprising as there is no mention of gay marriage in the proc, also it may be that the proportion of members who don’t oppose marriage equality, certainly in that age group, would be 40%.

If that is the case how many people are unhappy with the latest effort. How many are happy, is it a large majority? Tipping point? Itis not discussed in our ward.

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By: mez https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535609 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:45:41 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535609 If I recall correctly, I read a statement by former BYU-Idaho President Kim Clark, saying the spiritual emphasis at church schools would be shifting to more on “The Family” due to the fact that about 40% of college age LDS kids, and these were good active LDS students, hadn’t gotten the message at home that the Family Proclamation was about SSM. The students had no understanding of why this is a big deal.
This lack of understanding stunned church leaders so they are trying to correct the error rather than let it perpetuate.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535608 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 00:03:23 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535608 Martin, the growth rate of the country even including immigration has shrunk. We’re shrinking our growth roughly at the same rate the nation is.

Honestly though I don’t think the brethren care about the growth rate so much as they do seeing family as a key theological lynchpin in our conception of God.

I do think you have a point that it’s not clear to me that focusing in on something else would be helpful. (Depending I guess upon what we mean by helpful) Saying focus in on Jesus is a bit vague. We already focus *a lot* on Jesus. (I’m constantly flummoxed when people say we don’t – he’s mentioned as key issue every few minutes! – far more than families are) It’s just that the very way we see Jesus is through a lens of family.

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By: Martin James https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535603 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 19:53:19 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535603 Julie,
You may very well be right that indirection beats direction for large families but I am concerned that the overwhelming cultural trends towards smaller families means that there has to be an increasing difference between LDS teachings on discipleship and virtue relative to other social institutions.
Clark Goble points out that the LDS families of those between 40 and 59 are much larger than those of other religions yet the share of mormons in the population has not increased much recently according to the same Pew survey.
This basically means that birth rates much less than 3.4 per woman mean the church will shrink without increasing retention and/or increasing conversion rates. Both of those face serious headwinds. I think the church leadership realizes that its survival depends on those with very large families remaining loyal to the church which means an increasing difference from prevailing cultural trends.
Yo may be right about the individual virtue focus being the better path, but then that would require an explanation of why it hasn’t been sufficient to produce a greater number of young people committed to the church.
I agree with you on the personal preference for the type of teachings you describe, but I don’t think those alone are sufficient for the church to sustain itself in the United States. The Family approach may not be effective either but it doesn’t have the direct benefit that it specifically ties virtue to reproduction. One of the most profound and direct statement in the proclamation is that commandment to multiply and replenish the earth remains in effect.
I would be more able to agree with you about the Family being counterproductive if i could see how it caused those with large families to either have smaller families or be less committed to the church than the earlier focus of teachings.
I feel that some of the church’s teachings that moved toward personal spirituality and away from practical skill building for families was counter productive. I agree with you that a family theology without practical teaching to help with family creation is counter-productive.

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By: FarSide https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535602 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 19:38:58 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535602 Excellent essay, Julie. Regrettably the church’s approach to the scriptures seems to mirror its attitude towards its history: ignore the stuff that isn’t compatible with the current Mormon perception of the world or that may cause cognitive dissonance. And you’re right—this will lead inevitably to another faith crisis, with the church’s credibility taking yet another hit.

Imagine how all of this must appear to reasonably well educated person who is investigating the church.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535600 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 17:44:31 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535600 Martin (73) While Mormon families have shrunk somewhat since the mid-20th century we’re still well above US average. “The new study found that the average number of children ever born to Mormons now between the ages of 40 and 59 is 3.4.” “The LDS average was well above the next closest groups. The average number of children born to members of historically black Protestant churches was 2.5. Next were Catholics and evangelicals at 2.3.” Add in a quite high retention rate and we’re doing quite well in terms of at least matching growth of the US (which is partially driven by immigration given relatively low birth rates)

I do think one of the greatest challenge the Church faces is dealing with the massive demographic changes in the US. There are so many singles and I don’t think the Church has figured out how to make them feel more included. I was relatively older when I got married and I remember that period from 29 to 35 where I didn’t feel a part of things at all. Many of the people I knew in similar situations fell away simply because the social struggle of acceptance was hard, bringing a cycle where it was harder to keep the spirit (both due to peers one was with but also participating at church).

My sense is that they are emphasizing the family to try and stave off the church adopting the same demographic shifts that apply to the nation at large. (Ones 20s becoming an extended adolescence, becoming more set in ones expectations making move to marriage more difficult, expectations of marrying later, fewer kids, etc.) Don’t get me wrong. Looking back I think there were some huge benefits to getting married later. A lot of the stresses I think couples face were reduced because I was more mature. Likewise looking back at myself in my 20’s I was socially still very immature and probably not ready for marriage. I think everyone matures at different rates and we don’t really adjust for that well. (I say as I see some of my kids of seem to mature different parts of their personality at very different rates than some of their peers)

I can understand people not wanting so much focus on the family, but I don’t see many good suggestions on how the church should adjust to change the changing social focus by society at large within our subculture. There often is (without pointing at anyone in this thread) more an assumption we should just embrace the social changes of American culture and remove those aspects of church culture that conflict. That just seems inherently problematic to me.

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By: Julie M. Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535595 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 16:31:27 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535595 To relate specifically to Martin James’ comment: if the goal is large families, I argue that the best way to get there is through an emphasis on discipleship and virtues, not on an emphasis on The Family.

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By: Julie M. Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535594 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 16:29:05 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535594 Just to reiterate, since many of the comments here and RW’s post seem to reflect something I didn’t intend to convey: I’m not arguing against the importance of thriving families. I’m saying that thriving families are most likely to result from a rhetoric of indirection (=a focus on the practices of discipleship and the development of Christian virtues, as reflected in the four-fold mission of the church) and not on an overemphasis on The Family.

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By: Martin James https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535592 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 16:11:39 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535592 I think it is just the math. The church can only survive if LDS families reverse the trend to smaller families and have a pretty good retention rate of those families. Unfortunately, everyone and everything else takes a back seat. The church is about large families again as a matter of survival.

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By: J Town https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535588 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 15:57:17 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535588 Very thought provoking post, Julie. I don’t know if I’m 100% with you, but you bring up some good points. I can definitely agree with some of what Ardis said, as well. I’m on the fence between agreeing on the “overemphasis” of the family and feeling that perhaps that’s simply what this generation needs.

On the one hand, I dislike the thought of focusing too intensely on any one area of the gospel to the exclusion or marginalization of other parts. That can lead to problems. On the other hand, the apostles are to teach the general rules to the world at large, even if a particular individual is doing fine in that area or is even an exception to a given rule, and perhaps this increased emphasis is needed for the majority of people to awaken and defend the family. I do believe that is needed and I believe that the family is under attack, from a variety of directions. I also like to give the apostles the benefit of the doubt, else why even have leaders at all?

On yet another hand (how many hands do I have??), I have to wonder what exactly is being taught in the home for the family to be so misunderstood or lightly valued that we feel the need to have classes previously devoted to scripture instead being devoted to family. There’s really not much overlap there at all. Aren’t the parents teaching in the home about the importance of family, both by example and explicit instruction? Perhaps not and perhaps that is one reason for the increased emphasis on the subject.

I suppose at the end of the day, I am seeing an undercurrent of two things, both in response to this post and among people I know and interact with outside of the internet. One of which I can empathize with and one of which I do not. The first is the idea that this increased family emphasis is hurtful and exclusionary to some people. While I don’t see things this way, I do feel for those who are in pain and I would like to help them. I am not sure how to go about that (and, in fact, am fairly horrible at it, despite my best efforts.) This bothers me. No one should feel excluded or uncared for. Everyone, despite their family circumstances, is worth saving. And can be saved. And should be saved. Emphasis on the importance of the family does not change this, but I can see how it might send an unintended message of exclusion to those who aren’t in certain circumstances. I’m not sure what the answer is to this, but I think it will probably come down to individuals dealing compassionately with others. I don’t know if it can be successfully addressed at the “macro” level. But I could be wrong.

The second is the idea that people are “tired” of hearing about the family so much. I care much less about this. It’s common for us to receive instruction about many of the same basic topics over and over and over again. I used to hate always having to hear about the Book of Mormon all the time. I was so sick of it. I felt like I had gotten the message just and clear already and that other things were being neglected in favor of the same message on blast all the time.

However, I eventually realized that I was the actual problem. I was exactly the audience for the message, because I only “understood” and agreed with it on a superficial level. I had not given anywhere near the effort that I should have to reading, pondering, and discussing scripture at all. I realized that I needed to focus much more, and expend much more effort, on truly developing a strong testimony rather than simply believing and being content with that. Now, my experience is mine and doesn’t necessarily apply to all people. But it did make me much less quick to believe that I had some part of the gospel sufficiently “down pat” to the extent that I could pick and choose what I should listen to, or how often a topic should be preached. Because that really isn’t up to me. And it’s fortunate that it isn’t. Despite my misgivings, I strongly suspect that the same might apply here, at least to me.

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By: Richelle https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535584 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 14:24:22 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535584 Both Julie’s post and Ardis’s comment, which I think are insightful and really resonate with me, deal with the problems of focusing on The Family as it concerns individuals in their quest to be God-fearing, Gospel-loving people by raising their own family. Something strange that has happened in addition is that the people otherwise powerless to change their family situation very much that Ardis mentioned (singles, empty-nesters, LGBT folks, et al) are asked to support The Family as an institution in a more abstract way by vocally supporting or standing against particular legislation, sharing Facebook memes celebrating that the heteronormative nuclear family unit is ordained of God, and being outrageously happy about and supportive of their friends’ weddings, babies, etc. I have a lot of single Mormon friends who post The Family-worship type stuff on social media as though that is the only thing that will placate God while they’re yet unmarried and, sadder still, with the subtext that they are utterly incomplete as long as they remain single. To be honest, my single non-Mormon friends are, on the whole, abundantly more well-adjusted because they assume that family life (which many of them want as well) will come when it comes; in the meantime, they are still allowed a sense of personal purpose. That’s the kind of personal purpose (and peace!) that should be at the center of the Gospel in order to then promote broader community harmony and values. Like Julie says, it’s gotta happen in the right order lest our Mormon swimming pool become a place of vanity and chaos.

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By: Shajay https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535581 Wed, 09 Dec 2015 07:10:38 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535581 Daniel, #23

Can you explain what you mean by this?

” Today, we better understand how central family is doctrinally. That greater understanding is something to celebrate. It does not take away the importance of the atonement of Jesus Christ, which in fact has been emphasized more than ever, but properly places it in the context of familial love.”

The Atonement stands by itself, it’s not something that needs qualified by context. And the Atonement is valid even in the absence of familial love.

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By: voxclamantis https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/12/a-rhetoric-of-indirection/#comment-535567 Tue, 08 Dec 2015 22:43:08 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34488#comment-535567 Probably the best bloggernacle post I’ve ever read. Have been talking about these exact issues with a friend for the past year and a half. I agree with Julie 100%. I’m tired of hearing constantly about The Family (despite being a happily married parent of 4), and I do hunger more for real discussion of the scriptures, with all their viewpoints, and for true celebration of the good news of Jesus Christ. I don’t like how the gospel of The Family seems to be replacing Christ’s gospel in the church, and, like many here, I don’t think this emphasis is getting us spiritually or temporally to where we want to be.

Let me just add one viewpoint. I recently had a General Authority interview as part of my candidacy for a job at BYU. It was my second time interviewing with a member of the Seventy. My first interview, almost 4 years ago, went something like this: Share with me your testimony. This time around, however, we went through what amounted to a much expanded temple recommend interview, which my interviewer had to read word-for word. Given the context of my comment, you will not be surprised to learn that many of the new or expanded interview questions focused on how I now and how I would, in the course of my employment, uphold the church’s doctrine of The Family, not only in my own personal life but in my teaching. At the time, however, even I was surprised at the degree of the focus on The Family.

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