None of you mourned with me when what was holy to me was trampled.

None of you mourned with me when I saw what was evil to me celebrated worldwide.

None of you recognized I was hurting when you were dancing in the streets.

In fact, because you saw me as the oppressor, you refused to even acknowledge I could hurt.

And I don’t think you ever will.

I’m sorry you can only see things in terms of power relationships. I’m sorry, in fact, that you see things so incompletely even in terms of power relationships. Gay rights advocates pushed their will onto the entire country. That is a fact. The church expressed opposition to the very concept of gay marriage from the beginning. That is a fact. And now you take families that have participated in gay marriage and say the Church is trying to make enemies out of them? They already made themselves enemies of the Church when they desecrated a divine symbol. I don’t care how loving same-gender parents are, if they desecrate the symbol of marriage, that’s heresy, and it is the duty of the leaders of the Church to protect us from that. It’s not revenge, any more than God takes revenge on a sinner by allowing the Spirit to be cut off, or the floor takes revenge on a dropped chandelier for falling on it. The prophets have been unusually consistent on this point: Gay marriage is wrong.

And isn’t what was so abhorrent about Baal worship was that it involved child sacrifice? I don’t equate not allowing children to be baptized with burning them; that would be silly. I hope you won’t equate having children raised by loving parents of the same gender with it, either.

And “consequences” sure sounds like a sinister euphemism for revenge if I’ve ever heard one.

Like I said, a kicked dog biting a smaller cat to express anger at the wrongs that were done to it. Everything you have said reinforces that picture.

“Just like many people today face really hard challenges as they try to live the gospel in incredibly trying circumstances. I feel for them and pray for them, though I do not feel what they feel. All of that said, this is not the first time or the last time that God or His church will ask people to do things that are not fair or easy.”

Now maybe the above is not well worded and somebody still does not like it. I am not sure how much responsibility I have for the way others respond to what I did not write or when they take my meaning to be the opposite of what I say. And yes, it would be a real shame if everyone took me to be the poster child for sensitive and compassionate Mormon dialogue.

Moreover, there is at least a _possibility_ that we are _unnecessarily_ causing suffering, and that some of the things we are doing are mistakes. We have to own that as well.

The potential unnecessariness is the most troubling part, more so than the magnitude of the thing. There is a reason that Aztec human sacrifices trouble us more than Aztec cancer deaths. We are primed, for good reason, to pay particular attention to unnecessary suffering. This is what we can (sometimes) change.

It requires extraordinary sensitive and wisdom for us to know what to say in this circumstance.

When your respond with “The ancient Israelites did even harsher things to innocent people” or “Know who else suffered? Job.” or “World’s just a tough place” it does not come across as an outpouring of love, compassion, sensitivity. It does not come across as a grand wrestle with our responsibility as a people. It comes across as downplaying the gravity of the current situation and belittling the people who raise objections. Add in the glib tone and it really (as you have seen) rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

My hope is that people reading this blog will just see this as Frank being Frank, not as a signal of the way Mormons in general think. Please note that the other posts on T&S or BCC have not been like this.

I do think that the horrors of the Old Testament can be discussed in a thoughtful way. I’m not suggesting we ignore the scriptures. I just hope we read the New Testament as well and emerge from the exercise more compassionate and sensitive, not less.

Frank, I do believe you mean well. And I’m done now. Last word’s yours if you want it.

I don’t know what you’re referring to or what you mean by endorsement. I’m curious though.

Was his point that the word “made” in that verse can only support one concept of the circumstance? That would be odd coming from Pres. Kimball in 1979, considering that the 1978 revelation was the finale to a 30-year saga of disagreement among the apostles. I think he would understand better than anyone that God deals with self-assured, strong-willed leaders who disagree with each other–which implies that even some of the apostles failed to understand the will of God.

President Kimball endorsed Numbers 32:13 in 1979. Does that mean anything to you?

All of that said, this is not the first time or the last time that God or His church will ask people to do things that are not fair or easy.

Frank, I just reread your original post. … I’m sorry for what I said. It was wrong of me. Within the last couple of days I’ve made some decisions publicly. I feel good about those decisions, and I’m excited for the future. Those decisions also mean that it is no longer productive for me to participate in these types of discussions. It’s not productive for me, and it’s not productive for these types of communities.

I reread your original post, and I think you state it as well as any believing Mormon can. God has asked something difficult of those who believe it is God doing the asking. It makes sense that a post in this blog would start with that underlying assumption. I reject that assumption outright. Today I just realized that this isn’t the type of discussion I should be engaging in anymore.

I’m genuinely sorry. I was in the wrong.

nl, Bill Maher is a caustic jerk and proves the exact point I was trying to make.

Since this is a Mormon blog, I think we should be allowed to talk about Mormon things and expect those who see the world differently to make some allowances if they want to hang out here.