Comments on: Reading Nephi – 4:3-19 (part II) https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534598 Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:31:41 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534598 I’m not saying self defense explains everything – although if Laban was a major player in the geopolitics it’s quite plausible he could have sent troops after Nephi. As I said I think there are reasons to suspect Nephi’s appeal to Egyptians in Exodus isn’t just a loose metaphor. We know Zedekiah has strong connections to Egypt and their troops. That’s the whole point of Lehi’s and Jeremiah’s warning. So I’m not sure the whole “he’s already leaving” response is sufficient. (To bring up a point we discussed over on LDS-Herm on this)

Of course again this is a place we don’t have sufficient information. So we’re just speculating on various ways to read the text.

Regarding the bigger picture about ethics it’s an interesting question. I’m not sure how far down you want to go on that tangent. I’m actually pretty sympathetic to the comments others have made that Laban is a bad guy and deserves to be removed. Even had Nephi not done the job in just a few years the Babylonians would have. Laban had been pretty emphatically warned by the prophets. We know that soon (if it hasn’t already happened – the dates are a bit ambiguous) Jeremiah is arrested and nearly killed.

This is why Robert’s raising the whole dirty hands issue seems genius to me. Even if we address the ethics questions I think we at minimum have to remember that this is not a case of the ethics of regular life. This is much more akin to the ethics people in war zones have to deal with. If we apply the reasoning of the ethics of regular life, I fear we go astray. Now I recognize that for many there is no divide between the ethics in regular mundane life and extraordinary circumstances. I tend to think there is although I recognize things get murky quickly.

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534595 Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:19:19 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534595 Terry: As is already clear, I disagree. If we want to put Nephi on trial—or perhaps simply to assign culpability—then the legal questions and culture are the place to start. If what we care about is either a fuller moral analysis or reading the scriptures for ourselves as scripture, then the legal question is heuristic but certainly not primary. It’s a common mistake to conflate blame with obligation or right/wrong, just as it’s common to dismiss the faults of our heroes so as not to implicate ourselves.

Even going the other (in my opinion backwards or at least less valuable) direction, however, we have to admit that what we have here is only the defense’s (we might say “perpetrator’s”) version of the story. Which Nephi’s own account manifests it as controversial in his day. Which is certainly not enough to exonerate Nephi. It’s like condemning the Sanhedrin based solely on Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (incidentally, something else we’re usually quite—illegitimately—comfortable doing).

To say it’s not a “self defense” situation is quite the understatement. I certainly hope that “many” today would shrink from the task! That is, I certainly hope that Clark’s wrong—even in the clarification that pulls apart thinking it just from being willing. These conversations get a bit surreal sometimes.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534586 Fri, 30 Oct 2015 01:17:19 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534586 Terry you’re right to call me out on that point about whether contemporary people would have killed Laban. I should have distinguished between those who think it was just and would do it and those who think it was just but just would have trouble doing it. Much like I’ve heard it’s common for soldiers in their first battle to not actually fire their guns.

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534583 Thu, 29 Oct 2015 21:58:15 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534583 Clark. Here’s where I think some struggle (including Rob Osborn), trying to figure out Nephi’s “ethical questions” if any. Frankly, the legal question has to be the basis of beginning. I’d forgotten the Jackson conversation with Welch (good job David Day). When we begin trying to analyze Nephi’s actions, we have to start with the what was legal and illegal. Of course, that requires knowing what the nation-state-town-culture says about that. If it was legal and permitted, perhaps Nephi didn’t wrestle with it as perhaps our modern day 21st century minds might. I think that James is a bit too “sensitive” about what Nephi should have felt or even may have felt. I think its a proper subject for discussion and I DON’T think it isn’t faith promoting, but I do think it perhaps misses the mark. I think that more in today’s culture would shrink from killing Laban in his drunken, unconscious state than we realize. Its not really a “stand your ground, self-defense situation”. I do think that your question is the correct one though, we ought to be focusing on why Nephi wasn’t anxious to do it. Nibley went through that with his Arab Book of Mormon class decades ago (so the story goes). For them, it was a no-brainer. As for the Exodus position, I think Welch and Jackson are both fully aware of and sensitive to the provenance of that, but I’ve recently been going through a lot of Exodus material for a project, so I’ll look more into it. Hopefully, I’ll find something I can add to the discussion.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534573 Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:12:52 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534573 David, it seems to me the legal questions are somewhat separate from the ethical questions though. If I read James right he’s focused primarily on the latter. After all there are lots of things legal but immoral. And even illegal things that one doesn’t get found guilty for due to the conditions of the law. (Say an illegal search etc.)

While the legal questions are interesting, I believe the problem of pre-exilic understanding and post-exilic understanding is big and relatively unaddressed in that. Admittedly Exodus 21 appears pre-exilic yet we don’t know what form it was in prior to the exile but after Josiah. (I don’t know the arguments on source criticism there – but then I admit I tend to get much more skeptical of source criticism when we move from the big picture to smaller areas)

As you note even ignoring those issues Laban still seems pretty ambiguous. Of course the Old Testament (pre-Davidic Kingdon) seems much less interested in these questions – especially in Genesis. Even if the legal tradition probably develops by considering these narratives.

Getting back to the ethics, I think the question James is really asking is what we’d do in similar circumstances. Like almost everyone just feeling a prompting or even an “inner voice” would probably be insufficient for me personally to think I’m sure God is directing things. If God is directing things then the debate is over from my view. Yet the tricky part is being sure you’re getting a revelation and then interpreting it correctly. Interesting to the narrative those sorts of questions aren’t addressed. We don’t know whether Nephi is hearing a voice, if there’s an angel, or what’s going on. Yet to our modern mind those questions seem key to understanding the situation.

That said, I also think that even for most modern Americans with our rule of law and liberal democracy the actions of Laban were such we’d probably kill Laban independent of God commanding it. The interesting thing is that Nephi doesn’t want to do it. God has to command him to do it. Culturally that just seems quite interesting to me. I know culturally today the concern for many is Nephi deciding to do it. Yet I think the much bigger question isn’t why Nephi would do it but why he wouldn’t do it. Something that’s not been really addressed well yet.

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By: Rob Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534568 Thu, 29 Oct 2015 04:26:21 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534568 I think its important to note that Nephi makes it a point to establish the mechanism of faith. Its true that Nephi does take Labans life. But he only does so at the prompting and command by the spirit. The events transpire in such a quick manner that Nephi is going from one event to the next that night in a fluid like manner. That is how the spirit works with our faith. Nephi knows his family has a bounty on their heads to be killed. He knows that he must aquire the plates and was willing and ready to bring the fight to Labans household “alone”. Probably the last thing on his mind upon first entering the city that night is it is him who will be the instrument in Gods hand to destroy Laban.

You see, I dont think Nephi needs to justify his killing and thus the reason he adds it in the story. I think Nephi includes it in the story to show how the spirit works with our faith. Above all though, we must revere Nephi as an obedient, brave, and special servant of the Lord. It is just one of the many telling events that unfolds that places Nephi at the helm of their survival and miracles.

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By: David Day https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534566 Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:27:24 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534566 Jack Welch’s article is excellent. To add to that, he tells a story in the foreword to The Legal Cases in the Book of Mormon, available here: http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2238&index=1

While exploring the biblical law of excusable
(unintentional) homicide with English barrister and Jewish law scholar Bernard
S. Jackson, who has lectured at BYU’s law school on two occasions, we turned
attention to the Book of Mormon account of Nephi’s slaying of Laban.27 Professor Jackson had made the point that the biblical concept of premeditation
was different from the Anglo-American definition, which has come to require
much less than the deliberate preplanning and lying in wait for one’s victim
mentioned in Exodus 21:13–14. In American law, the requirement of
premeditation is satisfied as long as the killer is conscious of what he is
willfully doing merely the instant before the deed is accomplished. Jackson
felt that he could prove his interpretation of the biblical concept of
premeditation in Exodus 21:13–14 from a linguistic analysis of its Hebrew
text, but he regretted the lack of an actual instance from antiquity confirming
his interpretation. What he needed was an account in which a person had not
been lying in wait and whose victim was delivered by God into his hands, and in
which the slayer, when the killing occurred, was fully aware of what was
happening and yet the deed was viewed as falling between a homicide that was
committed with malice aforethought and a death that was purely accidental.
Jackson found it very interesting that the slaying of Laban might provide
something like the kind of case he was looking for, but he figured it would be
difficult to find a way in which he might use it.28

Text of the footnote 28: For his latest thinking on the law
of homicide in Exodus 21:12–14 and the legal question presented if a “killing
is neither premeditated, nor accidental,” see Jackson, Wisdom-Laws,
124–30, quotation on p.124.

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By: nl https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534565 Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:14:18 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534565 This project has had Nephi front and center. He is not marginalized. Even if he were, that would have nothing to do with Moroni’s promise. There, we’re not marginalizing Nephi and we’re not undermining the Book of Mormon’s credibility. In fact, we’re building up the Book of Mormon’s credibility. If we wanted to undermine it, we might cling to the words’ face value like we were fundamentalists, ignore any attempt to treat the characters as real people, and transform 1 Nephi into Beowulf. Make it a fairy tale. Act like we’re sociologists. But we’re not making it a fairy tale, we’re speculating as to what kind of real history it is. I seek the Spirit as I do so, hoping that some of the things in between the lines will be revealed to me, because I know God is liberal to him that asketh. I hope you will seek a deeper understanding of the Book of Mormon as well.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534564 Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:36:37 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534564 I think you’re just misreading the project Rob. It’s to read closely and engage with the questions in a faithful fashion.

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By: Rob Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534563 Wed, 28 Oct 2015 18:07:40 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534563 Clarke,
Not really what to take from it other than a work to marginalize Nephi and thus undermine the credibility of the Book of Mormon. But why do that unless you are anti-Mormon?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534562 Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:06:47 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534562 Rob, then you’re not going to enjoy this reading since it’s asking these sorts of questions even if we can’t fully answer them.

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By: Rob Osborn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534561 Wed, 28 Oct 2015 04:59:25 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534561 Clarke,
I cant really see any other way to read the text other than to just read it exactly as simply as it is stated. If there are faults, and it didnt realky happen the way its read, well, thats not my fault. But, it is my fault if I start reading scenerios into the text between the lines that just do not exist. What does the text actually say about Nephi? I dont think James is correctly identifying who Nephi really is, strictly off of the actual words found in the Book of Mormon.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534559 Wed, 28 Oct 2015 02:53:01 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534559 Rob, while I tend to favor the more straightforward reading, the types of questions a close reading bring are important. Effectively you are just saying that we should read the text as if it was written by someone with no biases, mistakes or aims. That just seems wrong. Even if you favor a straightforward reading the close reading by paying attention to the words and sentences in the text is quite significant.

That said, I do think there’s an important question to raise about how we judge among competing readings and where the burden of proof is. I think for instance that readings that go against the more straightforward reading do require justification.

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By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534554 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:08:32 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534554 Nl: that’s a very interesting take. I can’t help but think of the reverse Judas narratives that we sometimes hear (though alas, I’m sure I’ve now added insult to injury for having compared this Nephi to Judas!)

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By: nl https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-43-19-part-ii/#comment-534551 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 20:36:06 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34246#comment-534551 Rob, we are going to have this kind of discussion in this blog series. We aren’t trying to fictionalize Nephi. We’re trying to take him out of fairy-tale land, trying to see Nephi as he really was. Remember, Mormon explicitly acknowledges that there may be faults, and every single human in the narrative was fallen. Trying to fictionalize that by making Nephi a fault-free Prince Charming is getting old. He acknowledges that his soul grieves because of his iniquity. I hope you will too. At the very least I can’t imagine him nonchalantly shrugging off that he chopped a man’s head off, even if he knew it was justified.

Here’s a thought I have on justifying the death of Laban. Nephi knows what happens to murderers. He even knows what happens to men of war, who kill because God commands them to. If you shed man’s blood your blood must be shed by man. Maybe the one who it is better to perish is Nephi himself. I’m not saying Nephi was guilty, and in fact he is referred to as a temple builder later on. I’m saying Nephi was willing to give himself up, make himself into a murderer or even just a man of bloody hands, so that his people would not dwindle in unbelief.

A sign of the wickedness of rising generations is that they “became for themselves,” or became unwilling to sacrifice themselves, body or soul, for the continuation of their people. Mormon’s soldiers were fighting because they wanted to win, then fighting because there was nowhere to run. And so they dwindled and perished. There’s more to the collective righteousness of the Nephites than just the heroes.

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