Comments on: Reading Nephi – 3:31-4:3 https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534557 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 23:12:18 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534557 Terry, I think part of the problem is that those texts date to after the exile. At least in the key parts. So most sources I have suggest the hierarchy and more significant angelology date to after the exile with heavy Babylonian influence. The earlier strata (although this may be reading too much into it) seems much more like how Mormons conceive of angels typically.

]]> By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534556 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:37:47 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534556 Clark, some of the differences are more fully described in the “Interpreting Angel Motif” I’ve described in other posts. I’m also going to look more closely at “Angel Veneration and Christology” by Loren Stuckenbruck (Mohr Sebeck, 1995). As a start, I’d also recommend the entry “Angels” in the Eerdman’s Dictionary of Early Judaism, Eds. Collins and Harlow. Its written by Archie T. Wright, pp. 328-331 (Eerdmans, 2010). It has a section on the “Bene (ha) Elohim), not really applicable here, also on Malak/Angelos which is a good summary and says it can be human or heavenly. Then it talks about the angels in Job and Zechariah, Daniel, and other Jewish Literature. The article describes their roles as being “Surrogates for God”, “Intercessors”, “Teachers and Tour Guides” and that they have a distinct hierarchy. The bibliography alone provides some heavy-duty additional reading.

]]> By: James Olsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534555 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:23:27 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534555 Clark this is a fascinating point, though I think — as you ultimately conclude here — that this was an angel of the heavens. I’ve always particularly appreciated how close malak is to melekh — on multiple levels.

]]> By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534550 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:38:28 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534550 This Tyndale article on “Angel of the Lord” seems helpful.

]]> By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534549 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:31:48 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534549 I did a brief search. Admittedly I’m no expert on this so I can’t judge the quality of analysis. The Jewish Encyclopedia says, “in the earlier Biblical writings the term “Malak YHWH” (messenger of the Lord) occurs chiefly in the singular, and signifies a special self-manifestation of God. … At times the angel clearly distinguishes himself from the Lord who sends him ” (Interestingly there’s some ambiguity in some of the early sections of 1 & 2 Nephi on who is actually manifesting — such as the Spirit of the Lord in Nephi’s merkabah vision) It then says that’s it’s during the exile that there’s a big shift in angelology. I suspect many would argue with their notion that the divine counsel or pantheon is purely an exilic evolution. They argue that it’s this evolution from Babylon that provides the more human like malak yhvh. Suddenly angels are more human. They point in particular to the book of Zechariah for this. Even there though while there’s a certain ambiguity it appears these “men” are divine in some sense. But perhaps (according to the article) due to influence of the Babylonian pantheon.

Anyway most of the sources agreed that “angel of the Lord” are divine. I couldn’t find an example of a human in that role. So that’d imply 1 Ne 3:29 fits that usage.

]]> By: Ben S. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534548 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:59:38 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534548 Right, mal’ak is not necessarily divine, glorious etc. It simply means “messenger” which becomes “divine messenger” which mutates into our current cultural ideas of “angel” as white, glowy, appearing suddenly, etc.
I’m not sure off the top of my head if there’s ever clearly a human mal’ak yhwh, though.

]]> By: Ivan Wolfe https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534547 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 15:57:00 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534547 Clark, it’s interesting how often in the Old Testament, people don’t recognize angels as divine beings. For example, I was just reading in Judges (chapter 13), and Samson’s parent’s treat the “angel” as a “man of god” but not really a divine being, until the angel ascends to heaven, at which point they realize what this messenger really was.

]]> By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534542 Tue, 27 Oct 2015 04:02:08 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534542 I should have added in the last section on the angel (29-31) how odd this section is. I’ve often wondered if there’s a translation issue here. Is this an angel in all its glory appearing as a divine being to Laman and Lemuel? Or is this angel in the broader Hebrew sense of malak simply as messenger. In most places the word pops up it’s not a divine angel. (For instance in 2 Sam 5:11 it’s translated as “messenger.”) My understanding is that even malak yhvh (messenger of God) needn’t be a divine being.

Hopefully Ben S, who actually knows Hebrew, will chime in here.

I just wonder how much of this might be Joseph’s context affecting the translation. Note I’m not saying it wasn’t an angel. Just that if it was an angel Laman and Lemuel’s actions always seemed quite strange to me. I sometimes wonder if this wasn’t an other prophet like Lehi acting as a diving messenger. This would explain Laman and Lemuel’s murmuring much better. Of course one can also read Nephi i 4:3 as himself amazed they don’t believe after seeing something so amazing.

But if it was a prophet I can see Laman and Lemuel saying, “well if the prophet’s words were so great, how come we already had an invasion that put Zedekiah on the throne and ransacked Jerusalem? Doesn’t seem to me God’s too inclined to protect people from armies.” (I’m here assuming Laban is an appointed figure – probably by Nebuchadnezzar II which may explain some of the later actions with Nephi)

]]> By: Jay https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/10/reading-nephi-331-43/#comment-534480 Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:28:01 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34210#comment-534480 I’m grateful for your last sentence.

]]>