Comments on: What is Mormon Doctrine? https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-534232 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:17:27 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-534232 Yeah, technically deification is a Christian doctrine although not one most know. However because of the absolute gulf between God and creatures it was always seen as receiving a kind of divine image. There were further differences between eastern Christianity (where the doctrine was seen as quite important) and western Christianity (where it tended to get downplayed more). A constant theme in Christian history is the problem of Christian platonists (often part and parcel of mystic movements). Those Platonists tended to efface the distinction between God and creature entailed by (1) to a more Platonic notion where things are made out of God. There would be regular burnings at the stake or at minimum heresy charges in western Christianity over this issue.

Mormonism is a little different from the Christian Platonist since we tend to make more of a difference between God and any individual. So unlike Platonism (or many forms of Buddhism) the difference between God and us is never really effaced. Thus deification for Mormons is rarely taken as a kind of mystic union but much more being like Christ in the flesh. So in a way Mormons are actually more like traditional Christians despite our rejection of creation ex nihilo in that we maintain that gap. That said some Mormon theologians like Orson Pratt did move more in the Platonic direction, albeit with more of a materialist thrust. However on this point their theology never really caught on.

The idea of spirits as material actually has a long history in Christian thought. The traditional notion of ghosts as sort of like a gaseous substance really is remnants of folk traditions where spirits are material. You find this in several significant Renaissance philosophers. Part of this is, I suspect, due to it being very hard to make sense of what an immaterial substance is. People tend to (erroneously) think it’s still spatial but just invisible. The very idea of the weight of a soul some atheists like to attack Christians with is really critiquing these folk traditions within western Christianity. Typically the atheists in question don’t realize it’s at odds with most mainstream Christian theology. (There are other problems as well – since it might be a soul just weights very little or doesn’t interact gravitationally)

Regarding sources for calling these doctrine, again doctrine is a little loose in Mormonism. The focus tends to be more on practice. However D&C 130 & 131 cover several of the points. The meaning of (4) is a bit more debatable as it’s typically a teaching taught outside of canon by both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. The King Follet Discourse is usually appealed to it although some Mormon thinkers like Blake Ostler reject the King Follet Discourse as a means of grounding theology. In any case it appears to be a common teaching from the Nauvoo era of Mormonism through contemporary sermons even if not technically part of canon. Whether it counts as doctrine probably depends upon how one defines “being like God.” I left it intentionally vague since I’m not sure we know what it means.

Regarding (6) Mormon canon has expanded quite a few times, most recently with additions to the Pearl of Great Price. D&C 138 was added early in the 20th century. I think most Mormons treat things like the proclamation on the family as quasi-canon even if it hasn’t been canonized yet. I don’t quite see why you’d see this as non really accepted. From what I can see people get really excited every General Conference hoping new big changes are happening. I’d say that many recent changes from the mundane (changes to the priesthood quorums of the Seventy) to the significant (opening priesthood up to all males in the 70’s) have taken place. I think most people are always hoping for new canon changes.

It’s also the case that Mormons expect there to be many future new scriptures. So only around ? of the Book of Mormon was translated. (116 pages of translation was lost, but also at least half was sealed and not allowed to be translated) There’s also expectation of scriptures to appear from other groups.

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By: Maggie https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-534231 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:05:57 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-534231 Thanks for those thoughts, Clark. #4 seems to be the big one for my husband, and I suppose it differs from Buddhism in that the individual retains individuality and action rather than becoming part of a greater whole. #3 is one I’d never heard before, despite growing up Mormon, though it’s not unique to Mormonism (as evidenced by the ‘weight of a soul’ experiments). What is your source for calling this doctrine? #6 and #2 seem to be an unofficial (at least) part of most religions, and I would argue that ironically #6 is officially part of Mormon doctrine, but is unofficially not really accepted (if the brethren haven’t already done it, it must not be right!)

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-534230 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:49:23 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-534230 The main doctrines that we differ on from traditional conservative Christianity are

1. rejections of creation ex nihilo in preference to organization out of always existing matter
2. essential embodiment of God the Father
3. spirits as essentially material rather than immaterial as in Cartesian or Thomist views.
4. ability to be like God in a more robust fashion than traditional Christianity allows due to (1)
5. emphasis on important of authority for ordinances (although that’s mainly a break with Protestants)
6. belief in expanding canon
7. belief that Christ appears to the Americas soon after his death

There are lots of other differences but those are the core ones.

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By: Maggie https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-534229 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:44:06 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-534229 As a non-Mormon I have to ask, not just what is actually doctrinal to the Mormon church, but what parts of the ‘doctrine’ separate the Mormon church from other Christian religions? (Nothing Allison mentioned in the OP seems unique there). Is it doctrine or organization or something else that makes you feel ‘Mormon’ despite the teachings that you hope will eventually be dismissed as ‘policies’?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-534228 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:55:50 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-534228 While it’s clearly not canonical that Adam and Eve did or did not have a circulatory system, it seems reasonable to ask why they would. Whatever a terrestrial or celestial body is, it presumably isn’t the same as ours in biology. It seems fair to question the importance of red blood cells being given oxygen by blood. If you were designing a body from a position of high technology rather than evolution on a particular planet Would they have red blood cells and then an immune system working with white blood cells and targeting based upon molecular targets the ways our does?

The tradition that terrestrial bodies and resurrected bodies don’t have blood seem to be just speculation. Yet I’m not sure it’s speculation that’s wrong. While I’m sure our resurrected bodies will be similar to ours, I’d also assume many solutions arrived at by evolution for function are replaced. So hopefully we don’t have blood vessels in the way in our eyes, our intestinal track isn’t so dependent upon the right gut flora, etc.

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By: W F Hawthorne https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-534226 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:25:18 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-534226 I like this:
Joseph Smith stated:
“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company [1976], 121).

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By: Hedgehog https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533672 Sun, 20 Sep 2015 08:05:18 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533672 I agree Ben. My daughter is pretty hung up on canon in other spheres as well at the moment. It’s a word she uses frequently at the moment, so is also interested in it in a church setting. But she’d definitely appreciate the richer discussion, so long as what is and what is not canon is clearly delineated.

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By: Ben S. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533669 Sat, 19 Sep 2015 23:59:24 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533669 On the one hand, this ^^ is ridiculous. On the other hand, it’s virtually impossible to teach anything without invoking non-canonical ideas, terminology, or explanation. The best you can do is distinguish cleanly between them, and teach students to identify what scripture says, what it implies, and what bs (cultural assumptions, whatever) we’re bringing to the text ourselves

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By: Hedgehog https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533666 Sat, 19 Sep 2015 21:13:07 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533666 My daughter was somewhat disturbed by the online seminary devotional the other day. “Is that canon?” she asked, “that Adam and Eve didn’t have a circulatory system before the fall?” I told her no it wasn’t. She looked really ticked off, and asked “so why are they teaching us things that aren’t canon?” Why indeed!

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By: mirrorrorrim https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533659 Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:38:26 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533659 Adam Smith, I’m not sure if you’re being serious or ironic in your post. Assuming you are being serious, if you start with “obedience”, to me it seems you are missing something: how do you know what to be obedient to? Obedience to leaders, you may say, but what leaders?

For me, if something is a step two, it cannot be a foundation doctrine, much less the only one that matters. Even obedience to God must come as a second step, since a person must decide on some way of knowing what God is saying to her.

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By: Tim https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533655 Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:47:19 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533655 If Mormonism isn’t a struggle, you’re doing it wrong.

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By: Adam Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533651 Fri, 18 Sep 2015 17:47:36 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533651 No mention of the Restoration as a doctrine? What’s the purpose of Mormonism without the Restoration?

Of course, no one knows what doctrine is, as evidenced by the post and comments but not to worry, there is only one doctrine that matters: obedience is the first law of heaven. If you are obedient to what current leaders say is doctrine, you will do just fine. If that bothers you, Mormonism will be a struggle.

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By: Tina https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533636 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:16:48 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533636 Alison, may I suggest adding resurrection from the dead to your list? Joseph Smith said that if Jesus Christ hadn’t accomplished that, nothing else would matter.

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By: Alison Moore Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533633 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 19:34:26 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533633 Thanks for the good comments, folks. Hopefully I’ll be responding soon. You should’ve seen the firestorm this caused on the Mormon Transhumanist Association (MTA) Facebook page. heh You’re all so gentile here!

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By: Dave K https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/what-is-mormon-doctrine/#comment-533626 Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:00:44 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33926#comment-533626 Alex Trebek: “An unfortunately named book, the worst possible sacrament talk assignment, tomorrow’s ‘just a policy,’ and an ever-shifting standard that not even prophets, seers and revelators can agree upon, but which local leaders are nonetheless obligated to enforce.”

Ken Jennings: “What is Mormon Doctrine?”

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