Comments on: Thoughts on a Modern English Translation of the Scriptures https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Steven https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533784 Wed, 23 Sep 2015 15:58:00 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533784 I don’t have much hope that people are going to learn the original languages or that it would have much effect on the way we do business in the church. Perhaps we should shoot for more modest reforms. How about if we adopted two standards? First, you must cite/quote enough of the surrounding text that people can see the context, and second, if modern translations don’t support what you want the KJV text to say, you can’t say it.

When I was teaching Sunday school to the youth there was a really embarrassing example of what not to do in the Come, Follow Me curriculum. In the lesson titled, “How can I improve my scripture study,” it had the following scriptures and the theme they represented: “Isaiah 34:16; 1 Nephi 10:19; D&C 88:63, 118 (If we seek, we shall find).” The KJV passage they wanted you look at reads, “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read.” The problem is that the rest of the verse reads, “no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.” What is it referring to? The surrounding verses make it clear that it is referring to the wild animals that will forever inhabit the land of Edom after it is destroyed. Is that how we want to teach the youth to improve their scripture study?

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By: KLC https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533773 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:50:27 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533773 “…curricula that prioritize themes over…texts…”

Great insight. I feel that almost every 2nd and 3rd Sunday of the month in priesthood as we study our Presidents of the Church manual. Honestly, it matters little who the prophet was since the lessons are so divorced from the actual leader.

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By: Daniel O. McClellan https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533771 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:09:57 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533771 Thanks for your comments, Dave. Church leaders will meet shortly to discuss the possibility of more Bible translation projects. French is not at the top of the list of possible translations right now, but who knows what the future holds?

I agree that it is discouraging that readability is subjugated to other considerations. We largely ignore what the text is saying in favor of what we already know it means. Future curricula that prioritize themes over and against texts will only exacerbate that. I also think that as more and more converts come into the Church without the upbringing within the vernacular tradition of the KJV that lifelong members have, comprehension will drop even more. I have thought about conducting comprehension checks among English-speaking members of the Church with the KJV, just to see where we’re really at.

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By: Dave https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533768 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:31:54 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533768 Thanks for weighing in, Daniel. Sounds like you did great work — maybe we should all learn Portuguese. Any chance they’ll do something like this for a French LDS Bible?

Your comment #33 is both encouraging and discouraging. It is encouraging that there are those who speak up for readability. It is discouraging that the decision-makers put readability far enough down the priority list that nothing will change in the foreseeable future.

But as LDS resources become less and less helpful to English speakers, Mormons who actually want to understand the Bible will increasingly go to non-LDS resources. I have an NIV Study Bible that will pass for an LDS set of scriptures (leather bound, the right size). I have a Harper Collins Study Bible in iBooks. I read E.P. Sanders’ The Historical Figure of Jesus and Ehrman’s Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of a New Millennium instead of Talmage’s Jesus the Christ, which was outdated the day it was published. I use Friedman’s Who Wrote the Bible? and Walter Brueggemann’s Introduction to the Old Testament — although I like Sperry’s Spirit of the Old Testament, it is too dated at this point.

Let’s put it bluntly. The unwillingness of the Church to take the Bible seriously (seriously enough to make reading and understanding it a real priority) is likely to damage the Church’s credibility at some point.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533766 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 19:51:42 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533766 I don’t think original languages would have as much effect as you suggest. If only because people will still tend to “prooftext.” At best it’d simply change the passages used to defend a position. Also it’d leave the D&C, BoM and PoGP largely alone. While it used to be most prooftexting was from the NT, I’m not sure that’s as true anymore.

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By: Daniel O. McClellan https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533759 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:19:35 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533759 I have been offering a free introduction to Biblical Hebrew up at the COB this year, and next year I’ll be offering a free Biblical Hebrew reading course in the same place. Teaching them all the original languages would certainly be the best way to educate the membership, but at the same time it would dilute the authority of the Church over the interpretation of the texts.

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By: Ben S. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533747 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:41:00 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533747 I’m in favor :)
“Elders, remember to turn in your home teaching reports and work on the niphal stem next Sunday.”

Seriously, there’s a lot that can be done without formal training, including (cautious!) work with Greek and Hebrew. Jim Faulconer does some work in this in his Scripture Study: Tools and Suggestions , and I expand on it in the second half of my article on Bible translations, “Suggestions for Personal Study” from Religious Educator.

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By: David https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533745 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:18:14 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533745 Better yet, let’s just teach all our members Greek, Hebrew, and English. Let’s make actual biblical scholars, and not just pretend “scriptorians”

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533726 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 04:32:27 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533726 I really like his post on literalism. Something I’ve harped on a long time whenever someone brings it up, but he wrote it so well I’ll definitely be saving a link.

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By: Ben S. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533724 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:46:23 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533724 https://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533723 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:31:06 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533723 If I knew what a url was, I would tell you. I just googled him. His papers are at academia.edu and his blog has some political material, but there’s some GREAT biblical stuff as you go farther down.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533722 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:26:28 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533722 What’s his blog url? And thanks for chiming in Daniel.

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533720 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 02:22:34 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533720 All. Daniel O. McClellan at #33 has a blog that’s well worth reading. Some of his suggestions now grace my own bookshelves and I’m always interesting in what he’s writing at Interpreter and other places.

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By: Julie M. Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533717 Mon, 21 Sep 2015 23:17:08 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533717 Daniel, thanks for commenting.

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By: Daniel O. McClellan https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/thoughts-on-a-modern-english-translation-of-the-scriptures/#comment-533716 Mon, 21 Sep 2015 23:11:42 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33951#comment-533716 Hi, Nate. I am a scripture translation supervisor for the Church, and I supervised the new Portuguese Bible (unfortunately, I came on the project after the Pentateuch was completed). You are right that it is a revision of an older text in the public domain, but I do call it a translation. I consulted the various Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts for every verse to ensure accuracy and fidelity to the originals (the same was done for the Spanish). We were somewhat restrained in what we could change (we were given strict instructions not to “Mormonize” the Bible or change things arbitrarily), but we made a number of changes where inaccuracies existed or where better readings are now available. We did make the decision to default to the Textus Receptus in the New Testament where there were differences––unless there was a demonstrable mistake––for the sake of continuity with the language the Portuguese speaking membership is used to, but the Almeida was actually a very faithful translation. There are many places where it preserves better renderings than the English KJV (e.g., Dan 3:25; Hos 14:2). Overall, I would call the new Portuguese edition the most accurate Bible translation the Church publishes.

Now, on your concerns with the English KJV, I am in agreement. Our translation policy calls for language registers that are dignified yet contemporary in translating the triple combination, but we preserve the phenomenally antiquated language of the KJV for English speakers. The KJV also misunderstands a lot that we have much better contexts for interpreting now. The notion of retranslations has been brought up multiple times, and they’ve been rejected every time. There are a few reasons for it, but the main reason is that the language of the triple combination and most of the lexicon of the contemporary English-speaking Church are directly based on the language of the KJV. It would require an overhaul of our entire vernacular, and the Church just does not yet prioritize readability enough to have such a fundamental change be worth it. I don’t anticipate it happening while I’m here, but rest assured we have several people here who advocate for it.

Let me know if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.

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