Comments on: My Life as a Mama Dragon https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: christiankimball https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534833 Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:27:58 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534833 Thank you Christie Frandsen. Thank you Christian Frandsen. (And Rosalynde Welch for bringing this.) I don’t have to agree on every line and detail (I don’t) to agree wholeheartedly with the tone and desire and overall purpose (I do).

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By: Christie Frandsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534830 Sun, 08 Nov 2015 15:22:48 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534830 Amen and amen to everything you said, Mary – this divisiveness and focus on all the problems and pain are EXACTLY what Satan wants and promotes. I love how you put it – we should all “get a break from the pain and get our breath” and then look around to see all the good that we can do in this troubled world. You have done good today with your compassion and wisdom. Thank you.

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By: Mary https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534823 Sun, 08 Nov 2015 07:19:56 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534823 I’m brand new in taking a look at all this, just never had a reason to. I’ve been reading everything I can find for 2 days almost non-stop. I’m wondering if it is all about youth with sexual identity issues, and hoping it is, because I believe once a person is mature they realize everyone will be challenged throughout their lives with things that go to their core, it’s the way it is. If everyone spent as much time on each issue as is spent on this no one would have time to get anything positive done and satin wins. Please teach the youth to expect a hard life but turn to the Lord, He is the light for each path and each is different. As soon as you get a break from your pain and get your breath, use it to turn and help someone else keeping in mind most pain is unseen. Let’s not focus so much on the pain itself or what causes it, but on the relief that only can come from Christ’s Light. If it were a contest of who’s pain is the worst, we all think we would win. I promise it will all be taken from you to your glorious surprise when you choose to hand it over to Christ.

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By: Ardis https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534318 Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:31:14 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534318 I read your comment, Christian. Thanks.

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By: winifred https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534314 Thu, 15 Oct 2015 01:20:08 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534314 Please do not encourage people to follow this lifestyle. It will only end in unhappiness.
Members who encourage others to pursue the path of homosexuality will jeopardize their own exaltation.

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By: Julie M. Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534225 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:28:09 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534225 Christian, thanks for your comment.

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By: Christian Frandsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534223 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:04:03 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534223 I don’t know if anyone will actually read this. It’s perhaps a few too many days after the initial wave of conversation to be relevant. However, as Christie’s gay son (without me, she wouldn’t ever have written this article), I want to say a few things.

First of all: to those who had concerns or disagreements with the ideas expressed in the article and who articulated their critiques in a civil way, thank you! That’s not easy to do, but that’s the kind of discourse we need.

Second of all: to the many people who disagreed with the content of this article who resorted to personal attacks, shaming, and cyber-bullying, both in the comments here but primarily on the Facebook groups where this article was shared, please examine your own discursive behavior. To respond in such a mean-spirited way is hypocritical and inhumane and I am disappointed in vitriolic reactions I saw. Not only were many people not careful enough to even try to understand what my mother was getting at, many didn’t even read closely enough to get her name right. In a movement that is concerned with protecting the right to self-identify and elevating and celebrating those identities, to treat someone’s humanity so lightly as to not even look at her name when it’s written on a page is an act of erasure that is inconsistent with our values. If I am too harsh in this assessment, please forgive me. I can’t not be emotional when I see my mother victimized by a compassionless onslaught of online commentary, especially when the one critical element of her piece was not at all framed as an attack. I know that discussions of any issue connected to the LGBTQ Mormon topic will be fraught with emotion, and I understand why passages of this piece elicited strong internal responses for some readers. That response, however, does not justify the kind of abusive treatment that my mother received in the wake of this article. There’s more I would say about that treatment, but that’s not my story to tell.

Third: let me actually talk about my mother. Her style of advocacy may be quieter, but she does it as effectively as anyone I know and from the moment of my coming out, she has supported me impeccably. I’ll elaborate on her parental support: even before I came out (after she had figured out I was gay but before I told her) and every day since, she has made my health and empowerment a priority. She has prioritized my own self-determination and agency by constantly assuring me of her unconditional love and by giving me the emotional space to make life decisions free from pressure. She never once told me what kinds of relationships I should or shouldn’t pursue–she simply made it clear that she would always love me and that what she desired for me was health and happiness, however that looked. During those intense few months following my coming out as I transitioned from still trying to date women, to giving up on that and despairing in the prospect of a life alone, to finally opening myself up to the possibility of dating men, she constantly reaffirmed that. Her voice was a strong counterpoint to the internal voices of self-loathing and confusion that I struggled with at that time. As I came out publicly, she supported me. When members of my home ward questioned her, she defended me. She has hosted many LGBTQ events at our house (even before I came out, she hosted a presentation on the Family Acceptance Project). In her classes she has talked about LGBT issues and in so doing, ministered to her queer students (and she’s had a few). She is quite well-known in the greater LA Mormon community and has never for a second expressed any concern about how my being out and vocal might affect her reputation. She has used her reputation in our area to change hearts and open up conversations and dialogues–this is effective grass-roots work that has made a difference in our ward and stake and empowered other straight members to be more open about their support for LGBT people. She has spent money and time to attend events with me. She has invested emotional, temporal, and material resources to making sure that I got the mental health care I needed when I was most vulnerable. She has acted as a sounding board for me as I make decisions but never once imposed upon me any choice. When I have at times critiqued aspects of her allyship, she listens and adjusts without getting defensive. She has never made any kind of insistence about my involvement with the church. She has at times invited me to participate in church activities, but never pressured or manipulated me into it and on the occasions when I declined those invitations, she respected that without question. On another occasion, when I was particularly angry with “the church,” she made sure I knew that I could take a break from or leave the church with her blessing, if that’s what I wanted. She is a believing Mormon and lives her life as such, but her active and apparent love for me has never been predicated on my participation in the church. In fact, her parenting actually prepared me to navigate changes in faith and to view Mormonism with openness. While my siblings and I were growing up, she taught us about the good and the bad of church history. She taught us about other non-Mormon and non-Christian religions. She and my dad filled our home with books and art and countless issues of “Dialogue.” Their role as hosts of a monthly Mormon intellectual lecture series exposed me to a variety of views within and approaches to Mormonism and quickly took me past a point of simplistic, Sunday School orthodoxy. I say all this because my mom, while she loves the church, is certainly not trying to defend the church at the expense of queer people and would never dream of attempting to coerce or persuade anyone to stay in or return to a toxic environment (which she recognizes the church to be for many LGBT people). Her relationships with the many LGBT people she knows (those inside the church and outside, single people and people in a variety of relationships) have never been established on anything other than love.

This comment is far too long. I doubt anyone will read it. To conclude I wish to reiterate what I said before. If you take issue with the actual ideas in my mom’s piece, that’s fine. Join the conversation! Talk about the ideas civilly. If you perceived my mother’s piece as a personal or collective attack on your allyship or parenthood, I’m really sorry you felt that way and I’d invite you to reread the piece more closely and to try a bit more to understand what my mom meant. If you have called my mother’s allyship into question or attacked her as a person or parent, then you simply do not know her. She’s neither perfect nor beyond reproach, but she is good and her heart and actions are on point.

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By: Denee Tyler https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534220 Sun, 11 Oct 2015 03:38:23 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534220 I have to agree with previous posters that it is the church that is destroying our LGBTQ children’s faith, not their mothers. I have a very good friend whose RM daughter recently married another RM — a girl. This daughter was beyond faithful for many horrible years. She has now left the church and found happiness. Her mother told me that it would take an angel coming down from heaven to get her daughter to go back to the LDS church — she has been that damaged by it. Meanwhile, her mother is still a faithful member. I have two LGBTQ children, and I often wish that we had not been members of the church while they were young and impressionable — I feel that they have been irreparably beaten down by it. Both of them became much better people with much better mental health when they left.

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By: claudia https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534179 Tue, 06 Oct 2015 20:45:00 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534179 I’m so sorry to hear about the loss in your family ward, my thoughts go out to you and the family of the young man.

I admire your loyalty to your faith, goodness and your level of support of gays. Reading your response makes me think that when you are in the church you are free to follow you own conscience until you bump into the wall, that wall being what the current prophet says. At that point, you are to disregard what your heart and conscience say and follow the will of the prophet and his boundaries even if they do not sit well with you. I no longer believe in Joseph Smith so it’s all crumbled and now only I dictate how I follow my conscience and to what degree.

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By: Christie Frandsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534155 Mon, 05 Oct 2015 20:41:39 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534155 First of all, I thank you for all of the thoughtful and articulate comments on my post – I loved the many expressions of support and agreement, of course, but I especially appreciated the challenges, which gave me an opportunity to think more deeply and grapple with my own beliefs, which is always a very good thing to do! Secondly, I apologize for the delay in my response to your comments. I have been preoccupied with a terrible tragedy that occurred in our Ward family last week with the death of one of my Seminary young men. I hope it is not too late for my responses to be meaningful.
First, let me summon my boldest Mama Dragon voice and hereby declare that when the time comes that the history of the LGBT community within the Church is written (and that story will be written and it will be a magnificent story!), at the top of the list of the greatest heroes of that story will be the names of John Gustav-Wrathall and Randall Thacker and Tom and Wendy Montgomery. They are pioneers and their courage and vision and devotion is nothing short of heroic. I love and respect them deeply. I believe the Church is a better place because of them. I know I am a better person because of them.
Secondly, Randall makes a very important point which I want to emphasize: ”Affirmation as an organization does not take positions on church doctrine, yet recognizes the need for parents and all participants to share their own feelings and experiences with openness and authenticity.” I should have been more careful in distinguishing between Affirmation as an organization and its wonderfully diverse membership – just precisely as I want us all to distinguish between the Church as an institution and the behavior and attitudes of some of its members.
And third, I think might have been overly self-deprecating when I listed all the things I have NOT done as the mother of a gay son. One of you understandably questioned my right to even call myself an advocate, given that impressive list of everything I haven’t done in support of my son! So, here are a few of the things I HAVE done: I opened up our home and heart (and refrigerator ?) to Affirmation gatherings every month for a year, welcoming a veritable rainbow of LGBTs as well as our Stake President, Bishops, and many straight members of our Ward and community who wanted to learn more. More times than I can count, I have spoken up to clarify facts and correct ignorance and defend LGBT rights and human feelings in private conversations with family members, friends and even with strangers. I have done everything I can to educate and influence family and friends by sending articles and answering questions. My classes (until this fall I was teaching seminary as well as Institute at USC, and I still teach 2 adult religion classes) are well known to be “safe havens” for open discussion of every manner of “taboo” subjects including troublesome aspects of Church History, doctrinal doubts, and LGBT issues. Steve Fleming, I would love to have had your brave daughter in my class! And most importantly, I have given my time, money, tears, heart, and soul to helping my son in any and every way possible as he struggles to find himself and create a life he loves. So yes, I think I qualify as an advocate!
The point I was trying to make, obviously not clearly enough, is that BECAUSE of my quieter style, I strongly believe I have been even more effective in changing many hearts and minds in our area than if I had been more strident in my approach. There is a place for introverts as well as extroverts in this cause!! And Sue Bergin, I am absolutely not ruling out the possibility of even someday marching in a Pride parade, proudly sporting a rainbow tie-dye t-shirt!
And now for a few individual replies –
Tom, I am not claiming that parents are solely responsible for the religious outcomes of their children. Of course they are not – our children have agency (sometimes more than we wish!) and they are deeply influenced by teachers and peers (for good and for bad), thus all the resources that go into the YW/YM program in the Church. But attitudes and words from parents have a profound impact on children. And my experience is that young people hear negative words and attitudes far louder than they do the positive – including criticisms directed toward others. So I just urge us all to be extremely careful when we speak critically of the Church and the Apostles in the presence of our children, if we have any desire for them to stay in the Church. I think/hope we can be passionately supportive and protective of our children, even call out local leaders and members for bad behavior, and not throw the entire Church “under the bus.” Which leads me to my next response –
Anon, of course people can find a rich and satisfying spiritual life outside of the Church, but if this Church is, in fact, Christ’s true Church (even if it is not yet perfect!), I for one want to do everything I can to give my child every chance at holding on and staying strong, in what we all agree are extremely difficult circumstances as an LGBT young person. You wrote that “the Church doesn’t need protecting, vulnerable youth do.” By not attacking the Church, I am not “protecting the Church” but in fact trying to preserve my son’s faith in the saving doctrines and covenants. If you do not believe this Church and those covenants are true, than I would wholeheartedly agree that there are far easier churches to belong to! And by the way, Lynnette, I feel pretty sure that we haven’t yet received all of the doctrine that Christ wants us to have – “many great and important things” have yet to be revealed. THAT is why I will still stay loyal to this Church while supporting and protecting my LGBT son.
And finally to Old Man, I am not the least bit uncomfortable in associating with Affirmation and have not the slightest worry that my affiliation might jeopardize my temple worthiness. My only concern is with some attitudes of some people who are also affiliated with Affirmation. You can love the organization and not necessarily agree with all of its members – as we all know who are members of this Church!!
And if you read this clear to the end, then God bless you!

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By: claudia https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534118 Sun, 04 Oct 2015 21:03:39 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534118 In my point of view the church does not support gay individuals and does not treat or view them as equals to heterosexuals. I could not have a gay child and stay a mormon-it just does not compute. That being said, I would like to hear how these moms remain in the church in an effort to understand how it does make sense to them. FYI- I was raised a TBM until my late thirties, and am now a post-mormon.

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By: Joel https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534098 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 18:32:08 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534098 Suleyman,

I hear you. And I am certainly familiar with the notion that, in a church led by effectively infallible men, the status quo is necessarily the divine order, by definition. I also recognize that it’s blasphemy to percieve that the church is or ever has been moved by grassroots voices.

Rest easy, you and the other youth instructors have not failed to make that clear.

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By: Suleyman https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534096 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 17:38:05 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534096 Joel (30):
Because militaries and diplomatic corps are so good at establishing lasting peace and unity between human beings in the world today? I agree with you in that a portion of this organization is militant. Social groups which define themselves as “dragons” and “eagles” sounds eerily similar to other organizations which spans the spectrum from military units to athletic teams to gangs. I’m sure that some will claim that this is because these people feel threatened. That may be very true for some. Families with gay children do feel very, very vulnerable. But others are waging an ideological war within and without the church, and these hurting families are an excellent source of recruits. We should remember that human beings establish peace only when they themselves become peaceful. Many within this organization propose practices and doctrinal changes contrary LDS doctrines. They propose that it is the Church which must change. They clamor for a “revelation” which most refuse to define, because they know it would reveal their antagonism to the core teachings of the LDS Church.

I have worked with LDS youth for most of my life. Some of my gay students have confided in me. I have sought to bind their wounds and also teach the rest of my students to value the goodness they find in a broad variety of human beings. But I can’t be so naive to believe my gay LDS students will find salvation and exaltation in overly permissive and humanist world views of those who take very real efforts to subvert the work of the church and its leaders.

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By: Joel https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534085 Fri, 02 Oct 2015 16:15:00 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534085 # 28: “…perhaps their quieter style is more powerful than you realize in changing hearts and minds in their circles.”

Yes. Loud and quiet voices can compliment each other. It’s productive to have both a military and a diplomatic corp.

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By: Thinking https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/#comment-534083 Fri, 02 Oct 2015 15:56:54 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34033#comment-534083 “And meanwhile, until that revelation comes, I would like to invite a greater variety of voices at our meetings – not only voices of activism and change, but also voices of faith and voices of hope and confidence that the Lord certainly knows what is happening in His Church and in the lives of our LGBT sons and daughters. Perhaps even voices who help us see how we can better follow the counsel of our leaders and not just challenge or criticize them.”

I was also at Affirmation and I was thinking about this comment.

The main speakers were:
Tyler Glenn, Randal Thacker, Sara Jade Woodhouse, Sam Woolfe, Kate Kendall, Laura Dulin, Michael McLean, Tyrell, and Fiona Givens.

I would sincerely ask how it could be humanly possible to get a greater variety than THIS??

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