Comments on: Harnessing Fresh RM Enthusiasm to Train Future Leadership https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Wesley Dean https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532233 Sat, 27 Jun 2015 21:25:27 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532233 To add one that I haven’t seen mentioned, Power and Covenants: Men, Women, and Priesthood by R. Scott Strong and David B. Goates. It’s serialized here: http://thegoateskids.blogspot.com/2009/10/power-and-covenants-men-women-and.html

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By: Matthew73 https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532136 Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:54:47 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532136 Many excellent suggestions here. I would add Phil Barlow’s collection of essays entitled “A Thoughtful Faith”. It was published in 1985 but remains highly relevant. I understand it’s out of print but I hear through the grapevine it will soon be republished.

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By: jader3rd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532135 Sun, 21 Jun 2015 14:36:00 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532135 I’m certainly not nearly as well read as many of the commenters here, and I suspect that many of you will find my list simple, but here goes.
Joseph Smith the Prophet by Truman G. Madsen
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith by Joseph Fielding Smith
The Myth Makers by Hugh Nibley
The Rocks Don’t Lie by David Montgomery (not LDS at all, but if someone reads it and doesn’t come away realizing that how they understood scriptural events when in primary are probably not the way they should understand them now, I don’t know what will fix that)
Grace is not Gods Backup Plan

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By: John Lundwall https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532132 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 19:06:32 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532132 I am going to cheat, and offer an either/or list.It will assume that the Missionaries have already read the standard works, and perhaps some of the classics (i.e. Teachings of the Prophet JS, Lectures on Faith, the Miracle of Forgiveness, etc.) Of course, my choices are books that have largely influenced my own worldview.

1. Either Rough Stone Rolling (Bushman), or This is My Doctrine (Harrell)

2. Either Approaching Zion (Nibley) or Brave New World/Brave New World Revisited (Huxley)

3. Either Re-Reading Job (Austin) or Man’s Search for Meaning (Frankyl)

4. Either Cosmos and History (Eliade) or How to Read the Bible (Kugel)

5. Either Understanding the Book of Mormon (Hardy) or The First Five Books of Moses (Alter)

6. Either The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri (Nibley) or The Shape of Ancient Thought (McEvilley)

7. Either The Odyssey (Homer) or Moby Dick (Melville)

8. Either The Bhagavad Gita (various translations) or The Analects of Confucius (various translations)

9. Either Letters to a Young Mormon (Miller) or The God Who Weeps (Givens)

10. Either The People of the Lie (Peck) or Common Sense 101 (Ahlquist)

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By: Rockwell https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532129 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 03:51:57 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532129 It’s a little worrisome that we feel the need to protect return missionaries from learning too much about Joseph Smith, after they presumably have spent two years teaching other people about him.

RSR is probably too tedious to require most missionaries to read it, but if I had my way, the controversial aspects of RSR would be required knowledge for all missionaries. It would be a risky practice, but also one with more integrity than the current custom. On the other hand, I feel little obligation to maintain a missionary force, so take what I say with a boulder of salt.

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By: Ben S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532127 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:42:23 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532127 I’ve known several people who found RSR less than “benign.” Again, depends upon the person.

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By: Fred https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532126 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 22:03:58 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532126 Clark:

It’s too bad you would be afraid to give a book as benign as Rough Stone Rolling to certain individuals. I guess this highlights the trouble with a church that can be so easily be taken down with the words of a book or the nasty Internet. It seems to me that the truth should prevail as this site declares, despite whatever anyone says, but maybe that’s simply a mirage. Maybe that’s why true scholarship is not really encouraged by those in authority as some would like.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532123 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 18:20:59 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532123 As others noted, a lot depends upon the type of person themselves. While I love Rough Stone Rolling I’d be careful who I gave it to. Here would be my list.

Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion — I think most of his apologetics are really dated but this is a timeless book that is more religion than apologetics. While I don’t ultimately agree with a lot, it’s the type of book that challenges and makes you think about what Mormonism is really all about.

Mircea Eliade, The Sacred and the Profane also The Myth of the Eternal Return — Eliadei is problematic in some ways but this probably helps people understand Mormonism’s connection to the ancient world better than any other book. I think most Mormons misunderstand the temple and for whatever its problems this will situate them better than any other text. I’d put it far ahead of Campbell who is far more problematic I think. You might want to throw in Images and Symbols as well. All three are short and are readable even by people not as academic as probably many posting here are.

Leonard Arrington, The Mormon Experience. The best broad history of the church there is. Yes it’s somewhat superficial but it makes up for it in its breadth. Further it’s precisely because it doesn’t get into the nitty gritty that its so readable for new people.

Terryl Givens, Wrestling the Angel. Probably the best book on theology or Mormon intellectual speculation. Why I like it somewhat better than say Blake Ostler’s excellent series is it’s terse but also tends to give the spectrum of ideas rather than arguing for just one position.

Robert Alter, The Art of Biblical Narrative and The Art of Biblical Poetry. Both excellent books that will open peoples eyes when they read scripture.

Mixed on what Sorenson to give. An Ancient American Setting is the best intro but is also somewhat dated. Yet his Mormon’s Codex isn’t nearly as readable as an introduction. Maybe instead (although this might be too big)

Brant Gardner, Second Witness: Analytical & Contextual Commentary on the Book of Mormon. It functions well just as a commentary but also brings in a lot of mesoAmerican theories.

I kind of want to throw in some NT Wright as well. Maybe What Saint Paul Really Said.

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By: thabermeyer https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532122 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:39:58 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532122 Isn’t this more or less the same question you asked in your “Hypothetical Missionary Library” post from a few months back? Good stuff to consider again.

There is a major assumption being made here, I think, that reading these books once in one’s youth will be sufficient for a lifetime of church leadership. Yet I think we can all agree that very little is retained if all we do is read through a book once; even less if that read-through is not accompanied by annotating, discussing, rereading, analyzing, applying, etc. This is part of the argument for the necessity of reading and rereading scripture throughout one’s life.

I’m curious if anyone has ideas for getting people to not only read books, but to retain what they read. I read a lot of books, but have yet to find a satisfactory system for retaining and applying what I learn. If I, as an avid reader, have trouble with this, what of the casual LDS reader, assuming you get them to read anything from this hypothetical book list? Are we assuming if they read these books in their early 20s, they’ll still be able to draw on the knowledge in their 30s, 40s, and beyond? I think this is why Elder Packer tries to make a case for continued attendance in gospel doctrine classes: he knows that getting it once isn’t good enough. (The cynical side of me would say going to gospel doctrine class isn’t going to help bolster one’s gospel knowledge in any meaningful way, but I digress…)

As an aside, Elder Packer’s projected trajectory for this young bishop, which he identifies with years and years of “[a]gendas, meetings, and budgets and buildings [which] will take up his time,” sounds like a nightmare to me, and reinforces why I don’t think I could ever make it in high leadership callings.

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By: Kevin Christensen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532121 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:23:16 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532121 Ian Barbour, Myths, Models, and Paradigms: A Comparative Study of Science and Religion
Eugene England, Why the Church is as True as the Gospel
Carol Zaleski, Otherworld Journeys
Mircea Eliade, Cosmos and History: The Myth of Eternal Return
John Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon
Robert Alter, The Art of Biblical Narrative
Margaret Barker, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel’s Second God
Some Hugh Nibley
Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers, The Power of Myth
John W. Welch, Illuminating the Sermon at the Temple and the Sermon on the Mount

Off the top of my head at the moment. Another day might be completely different. But all of these completely changed the way I thought and read about my faith.

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By: Ben S. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532120 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:14:59 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532120 Um, house rules? “Roughly” ten? A baker’s ten?

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By: Ben S. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532119 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:13:38 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532119 I think it depends heavily on the mission and the missionary (see here for my experience, here for thoughts on revisions to the missionary library, and here for the reports of many others about what they read on their missions.)

“according to the materials they are allowed to read, they are.” Again, depends. If they’re reading the Gospel Topics pages off lds.org, they’re certainly more officially informed than in the past. That said, (anecdata) I knew several of these things, but certainly nowhere near all of them.

I think it’s Joe Spencer with a blog post, talking about how he never blanket-recommends books without knowing the person, which is important. The recent conversation I quote in the post, it turns out the missionary in question “loved reading genesis with the student manual [and] listened to a lot of Bruce R Mcconkie talks on his mission so is that helps direct you at all.” So if the student manual and Elder McConkie are your baseline, then we need to move a bit slower, perhaps.

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By: Julie M. Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532118 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:09:52 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532118 Ben, you cheater! That’s way more than ten.

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By: The PangWitch https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532117 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:03:44 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532117 Am I the only one that worries about this? A missionary is essentially limited in what they are allowed to read. They really don’t have any way of knowing what many call the “tougher” parts of LDS history and theology. They tract and hear from evangelicals that Joseph Smith had 30 wives or that the BOM was translated with a stone in a hat, and they think to themselves “those are lies!” And, according to the materials they are allowed to read, they are.

I think its dangerous to just say “okay, you’re home from your mission now, read away!”

shouldn’t we have some sort of innoculation schedule? Like read this, before this.

Ben S., if we just go with your list and immediately give someone David o Mckay’s biography, and the Teryl Givens book, I think it could be too much too soon.

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By: Ben S. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/harnessing-fresh-rm-enthusiasm-to/#comment-532116 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 15:50:11 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33467#comment-532116 My list is a lot like Julie’s, though I’ve got tension between what I think a recent RM could slog through and what I think a mature LDS 30-something should have read. (I’ve seen several Bishops, SP counselors, HC members, and RS Presidents in their 30s.)

So in no particular order,

History/Biography
Rough Stone Rolling , THE biography of Joseph Smith, though it’s not perfect.

Mormonism in Transition: A History of the Latter-day Saints, 1890-1930. This is really the period where things change to become the Church as we know it, more or less.

David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism , a history-cum-biography

The uncut pdf draft of Lengthen Your Stride, The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball , which lives on a CD-rom that comes with the hardcover.

Scripture– This is the most important category for me, because our understanding of scripture affects everything else in the Church.

A good modern Bible ( Jewish Study Bible for OT, Harper-Collins for New Testament)

The two Deseret book volumes on < NT and OT.

By the Hand of Mormon: The American Scripture that Launched a New World Religion and anything else by the Givens ( Crucible of Doubt , Wrestling the Angel , the God Who Weeps, How Mormonism Makes Sense of Life

Rereading Job – A great exploration of scripture, doctrine, history, and suffering, modeling how to read and study scripture.

Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament– Assumptions are what often get us into trouble, and Enns examines three assumptions about scripture held by Evangelicals (as well as most Mormons.)

Mormons and the Bible – Examines how LDS have read and used the Bible from Joseph Smith on down.

Misreading Scripture Through Western Eyes: Removing Cultural Blinders to Better Understand the Bible – a thought-provoking look at how cultural assumptions affect our understanding of scripture.

Sacred Word, Broken Word: Biblical Authority and the Dark Side of Scripture – I keep meaning to write a review/LDS application of this, which I would subtitle “Apostolic Authority and the Dark Side of Church History” Sparks puts forth a theory of inspiration and revelation which accounts for (in the Bible) slavery, misogyny, genocide, etc. IOW, how do we accept inherited tradition as “inspired” when it clashes with clear ideals of how things should be? A very important book, imo.

“Doctrine”
Women at Church: Magnifying LDS Women’s Local Impact

How Wide the Divide: A Mormon & an Evangelical in Conversation
as well as all the followups (the entire issue of FRB 11:2 here , the BYU Studies articles , etc. I don’t necessarily think Robinson (the LDS author) is right on every point, but he models a good way of reading scripture, analyzing, defending belief, in a respectful way.

That’s my quick-and-dirty list. Obviously, given my posts here, I have lots of books to recommend.

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