Comments on: Religion in America: Who Needs a Church? https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Another Joel https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531851 Sat, 23 May 2015 20:01:05 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531851 “Esau who squandered his birthright for a bowl of soup”

Speaking of conventional interpretation, am I the only one who reads this as a story of exploitation of the desperate by the self-righteous? I wonder if pyramid schemes do so well in Utah because of an Esau-Jacob effect.

]]>
By: Michael McNew https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531850 Sat, 23 May 2015 16:46:34 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531850 As stated in this radio show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H37793fEQ2s our society is quickly adopting an attitude not unlike that of Esau who squandered his birthright for a bowl of soup. The problem as I see it is that Americans, and most western Europeans, are perfectly willing to sacrifice family and even spirituality in order to follow the “god” of consumerism. They like those little trinkets on their ankles and their designer cars and clothes. Sad part is that all this does not fill the thirst for God and perhaps this is why westerners are so unhappy.

]]>
By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531817 Wed, 20 May 2015 15:51:52 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531817 Brad (51) I’m actually familiar with that study. Mormons and Jews actually buck that trend. Which is surprising given the large number of converts and that converts tend to come from more humble means. We should also note that while there was a difference between the religious and non-religious it was pretty small and the correlation coefficients were pretty small as well. (I have in my notes they are 0.6 but I’ve not had time to check that) So the relationship is definitely there but it doesn’t apply to all groups and the effect isn’t huge one. (That is it’s a significant statistical relationship but not necessarily a significant practical relationship – people often conflate the two senses of significant) The relationship also breaks down when you shift from the US to the world as a whole.

As you noted (50) there are some very interesting religious correlations. So there’s a fairly strong wealth/religiosity inversion and a strong innovation/religiosity inversion. For both those trends the US is a huge outlier.

The issue of education and religion in the gss is limited as you note (49). There’s a relationship but a small one but the key point is that the relationship though weak is the opposite of what most people expect. i.e. what’s really at issue is the assumption more education = less religion, whereas as the paper you linked to notes that’s been falsified. Further the analysis of the Nones shows a significant group who are poorly educated and not religious. But then there’s an other group very educated but not religious. We need to not conflate the two. Further we also need to distinguish between the religiously disengaged and the agnostics/atheists who care enough to say they have some clear ideas on the topic. It gets more interesting when you dig down yet further. There’s a huge gap between STEM and non-STEM fields in terms of religiosity. This phenomena tends to appear with those getting education beyond a Bachelor’s. I have a post on religiosity among elites from a few months back.

]]>
By: Brad L https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531816 Wed, 20 May 2015 00:10:36 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531816 Clark, you should also consider a 2013 study, which reviewed 63 scientific studies over decades, that finds that in 53 of the 63 studies there was shown “a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity.” There is a paywall to access the study, but a brief review of it can be found here.

]]>
By: Brad L https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531815 Tue, 19 May 2015 23:55:52 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531815

Likewise the wealthier one is the more likely one is to be religious.

If you look at all countries, there is a negative correlation between religion and wealth:

In poorer nations, religion remains central to the lives of individuals, while secular perspectives are more common in richer nations.

]]>
By: Brad L https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531814 Tue, 19 May 2015 23:30:42 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531814

As I said there is an education aspect but not the way most assume. College graduates are the group most likely to be involved in religion

You should read this study, which shows the correlation between higher education and religiosity to be rather tenuous.

]]>
By: mwolv https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531813 Tue, 19 May 2015 19:19:09 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531813 @Adam G, I’m curious if you would you prefer quantity or quality in the youth program? I don’t think we can have it both ways. Our family has three teenagers and two parents in youth leadership callings. It takes a toll. Early morning seminary (no chance for family time at breakfast), weekly YM/YW activities and prep work before each, Scout stuff on many weekends, Scout committee meetings and Board of Review meetings, stake activities, “firesides” and dances, class presidency meetings, BYC and BYD once a month, lesson prep, and more. Almost forgot multiple day-long training sessions on Saturdays for youth counselors going to YW camp. Exhausting. Have we unconsciously or consciously decided as a church that we’ll create as many activities as we can in the hope that sooner or later we’ll catch all the youth in our net?

Many members seem to believe that the more meetings and activities you have, the more “active” you are and the more you are “magnifying your calling.” There is also a notion, perhaps calculated, that if you keep every member busy at church or doing church callings and assignments, they are less likely to stray. That may be true to an extent. But I’ve seen it backfire. And either way, the fallout is that we don’t spend nearly enough time with the people the church teaches are the most important: our families. And we don’t have many opportunities to share the gospel because this hamster-wheel existence means we spend too much time at church with fellow ward members to expand our circle of friends/acquaintances.

]]>
By: Adam G. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531812 Tue, 19 May 2015 17:22:32 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531812 For Mormons, what the rise of extensive, organized extracurriculars does is make it hard to run a youth program. Some significant percentage of your youth will have a conflict with whatever evening you pick, plus an even greater percentage with Friday night/Saturday during the school year. Much ingenuity and flexibility required.

]]>
By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531811 Tue, 19 May 2015 16:47:13 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531811 I couldn’t find the breakout for the current survey for other activities. (Pew usually likes to dole out all the data over several months so as to keep people paying attention) For their prior survey in 2011 they had a lot on community involvement.

For that data set 35% of people in general are active in sports or recreation leagues while 17% of the Nones are. 34% are active in charitable or volunteer organizations like Habitat for Humanity while 15% of Nones are. 30% are active in community groups or neighborhood associates while 11% of the Nones are.

As I said there is an education aspect but not the way most assume. College graduates are the group most likely to be involved in religion. Likewise the wealthier one is the more likely one is to be religious.

]]>
By: Chadwick https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531810 Tue, 19 May 2015 16:43:11 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531810 JoAnna C: In my current ward the Mormons are just as guilty of this. So many children’s sports activities on Sunday, including ballet recitals for the 3-year olds. Also, several adults missing church for an endless stream of marathons it seems, all on Sunday.

Maybe I was simply oblivious to these things, as I grew up in an inner city ward that could not afford these things, and now live in an extremely affluent area in Southern California where events are year round due to excellent weather conditions. It has surprised me to say the least, but since my wife and I are not sports people, I suppose it’s easy to judge. To coin a phrase from President Uchtdorf, I suppose I simply sin differently.

My experience is the more I miss church, the easier it becomes.

Not sure what this comment has to do with the “nones” but I think a lot of LDS are becoming “nones” themselves indirectly.

]]>
By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531809 Tue, 19 May 2015 16:30:20 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531809 JoAnna (41) I don’t know if Pew’s released the hard data so you could calculate correlation coefficients.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are several different demographics in the Nones. For example there’s a very big difference between the Nones who are in the under $30,000 income demographic and those who are above. The under $30,000 group make up 40% of the Nones. Also 45% have only a high school diploma or less. So contrary to what some might suspect the main rise in the Nones is among the less educated and less wealthy.

Also we have to distinguish those who consider themselves part of a religion but don’t attend regularly from those who don’t consider themselves anything.

This is all very significant and probably has a lot to do with feelings of alienation. While the media hasn’t portrayed it that way, to my eyes a lot of this seems like a very class situated demographic change. While women Nones are rising most tend to be men as well.

While it’s just a guess I’d expect that it’s primarily among the better educated and wealthy that there’s a shift from religious to simply adopting different social networks such as Sunday sports, political activism, art or whatever.

What’s of more concern to me personally is the other demographics as I sincerely feel like a huge group of America is just becoming alienated entirely from America. It makes me worry about something like the rise of Orwell’s Proles. The social integration that was more present in the 20th century is disappearing. (And it was never as good as it should have been even then)

]]>
By: mwolv https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531808 Tue, 19 May 2015 15:51:21 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531808 @JoAnna C, you may be correct that a large number of parents have effectively chosen Sunday “sports as their church.” Some may prefer to not have sports activities on Sundays but feel pressured to participate. But I know plenty of families who just don’t like attending organized religious services regularly. The latter group wouldn’t attend church even if no games or practices were being held on Sundays. They just don’t want to go to church. It’s not that they don’t know what they’re missing; it’s that they just don’t miss it at all. They find meaning in other aspects of life. Many of them are closer as families than a lot of the LDS members I know, who are supposed to be singularly focused on family.

I’ve been active LDS my entire life. Like you, skipping church was never an option. Only in the past couple of years with one of my children getting more involved in travel sports have we faced a conflict on Sunday scheduling. I feel strongly about the principle, “teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.” (Side note: I wish more LDS leaders would take this approach, for example, to modest dress standards instead of the prevalent approach of dictating hyper-specific black & white rules that have the unintended result of making youth more self-conscious and critical of their physical appearance.) Our solution to Sunday sports has been to attend church whenever possible (we rarely miss) and we lean in favor of church when there is conflict. But there have been a few times when we’ve chosen to travel to away games instead of church, and I honestly can’t say that I missed church. LDS services in our ward have become so business-like that they hardly feel worshipful or uplifting. I’m sure I’m accused of “fence-sitting” or otherwise being judged by other LDS for trying to have it both ways. And I’m sure people will say you get out of Sunday what you put into it. I just know there are without question Sundays that I feel closer to God by being outdoors with my family, free from the stress of meeting-after-meeting-after-meeting church.

]]>
By: Adam G. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531805 Tue, 19 May 2015 14:00:05 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531805 @JoAnna C.,
a Catholic co-worker was complaining to me that she had to miss normal Easter services because her son’s club team had a major tournament that weekend. His team was scheduled for 9 AM on Sunday.

]]>
By: JoAnna C. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531803 Tue, 19 May 2015 10:56:06 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531803 I would like to see the correlation between declining church attendance and increased Sunday-select-sports participation. I belong to the United Methodist Church and 5-7 years ago, 35-40 youth would be in attendance at church regularly. The past two years have seen a sharp decline. Many of those same youth belong to select cheer, basketball, baseball, soccer, and football programs. They travel, practice, and play all weekend. In my opinion, this sends a strong negative message to young children: That family free time centers around them. Expensive equipment, hotels, eating out during tournaments, gasoline expenses, and other costs can be a heady experience for a young person…especially when it is all being spent on “one child.” Where do families go from there as the child gets older?

There is a generation of youth growing up who aren’t going to church because their parents are choosing sports as their church. One reason the LDS numbers remain flat could be due to the LDS emphasis on keeping the Sabbath holy. I grew up in the LDS church, in varying levels of activity, and can say that church attendance, or having a church home, has never been an option. Our church is a vital, important part of our family life. Trading church for other Sunday commitments was, and never will be, an option.

]]>
By: Cameron N. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/05/33338/#comment-531801 Mon, 18 May 2015 19:25:31 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33338#comment-531801 I think you’re right Tim.

]]>