Comments on: Varieties of Grace https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Rosalynde Welch https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531439 Thu, 16 Apr 2015 14:49:08 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531439 Mike Maxwell, I just saw your comment. I appreciate Kristine’s kind defense of my character, but at the same time I know exactly what you mean. I agree that guilt and shame serve useful social and personal purposes, and I try not to be too sanguine about my relative insensitivity to those feelings. Fortunately, I suppose, I remain exquisitely sensitive to social pressure, if not religious guilt! :)

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By: TLC https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531438 Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:08:40 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531438 I feel in many ways like you, with, perhaps, the sharp difference of having an easy time recognizing my sins. I just don’t feel greatly burdened by my sins. I know that I make mistakes, that I sometimes willfully sin against God and what I believe to be the right way to act, but I also know–thanks to some good discussions with my parents as a youth and my own scripture study–that I can live in joy because of the Savior’s grace. I see my mistakes and my sins as part of my progression toward one-ness with the Lord, brought about through continual (healthy-minded) repentance. I know that he has already paid for my sins, and I willingly accept his grace. I try to live with love of God and all men and to make the Lord’s two great commandments the be all and end all of my existence. Everything else, as Uchtdorf said, flows out of gratitude and love to the Savior, with recognition that he has paid for my failings and made possible everything good, both in this life and in the life to come. This is why I rejoiced in Uchtdorf’s talk. It didn’t hit me because it was something new or didn’t reflect my current understanding. It hit me because I do feel that too many members are burdened with unnecessary guilt and have a ‘list mentality’ or ‘works mentality.’ I feel that we so often get it backwards in the church, including in official teachings, and that we totally misintepret the ‘after all we can do’ scripture (2 Nephi 25:23). It is because I love my fellow Latter-Day Saints that I *loved* Uchtdorf’s talk.

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By: Old Man https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531429 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 21:10:02 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531429 whizzbang,

I speak from some experience. Cultivate a healthy self-esteem. Break down those negative thoughts. They are usually irrational. Put the light of day on them, they usually break down. Keep a journal as you do so. Remind yourself of your victories. If there is anything that you can’t put right, serve someone. Express love to people with confidence. And when you see smiles on their faces, say to yourself that no matter how flawed we both are, we can reflect God’s love into the corners of human existence. Pay fast offerings, donate just a little bit to charities you believe in. And put those instances in your journal. Real, concrete actions, no matter how tiny, heal our broken inner voices. Then the Holy Spirit has material it can confirm to our minds.

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By: Old Man https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531428 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 20:58:36 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531428 I think we can be in danger of conflating “godly sorrow” (2Cor 7:10) or the admonition of James who criticized people who rejoiced in sin (James 4: 8-9) with a sense of inadequacy or self-reproach. It is only rarely that “guilt” or “guilty” is a descriptive of feeling in scripture, it usually refers to one’s standing before God, and then we need to read James 4 or the O.T. prophets who admonished people to humble themselves in sackcloth and ashes. If one feels guilt and actually is guilty, it is a good sign corrective measures can be taken. But the sinful do not necessarily feel guilty, nor are those who feel guilt necessarily guilty in God’s eyes, as the many pathologies which plague humanity attest. I would argue that spiritual sensitivity (empathy, aesthetic sense, justice, etc.) must be cultivated. So many are past feeling.

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By: whizzbang https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531427 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 19:09:55 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531427 @24-I’ll be a second witness to what you say. I had a Bishop that when we were 12 gave us copies of the MOF by Pres. Kimball with the instruction to read it. I don’t know about anyone else but I read and it nearly killed me many times. Through the festival of errors that comes with being a teen and in the Church and him being a total control freak he wanted me in his office on a regular basis, I don’t know about anyone else but I confessed everything. I vividly recall being around that age, not working because of child labour laws and him saying that I paid no tithing so I needed to repent-like for what? being 13 years old? and not working in the Mines anymore? We got a new Bishop and my life got better and worse and long story short I got divorced in my mid 20’s and my life exploded and I spent ten years cleaning up with emotional and financial mess. Things are better now but I still feel guilty for literally everything and I don’t know how to shake it without feeling numb to guilt and the spirit.

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By: Eric Russell https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531426 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 17:51:58 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531426 “maybe my upbringing, or my brain structure, or my life experiences.”

No doubt a portion of all – but mostly your upbringing. People who are overwhelmed with the need for forgiveness and rescue generally suffer from an excess of shame – a condition that most often occurs as a result of having grown up with a parent who shamed them or through vicariously bearing the untreated shame a parent carried.

Thanks for a beautiful post, I share every sentiment.

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By: Josh Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531425 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 16:55:22 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531425 J Town (#22):

Once every three or four months my work requires reading over trial transcripts where victims and perpetrators testify about things that literally make me ill. Here’s my current thinking when it comes to guilt (subject to persuasion otherwise):

(1) God is not running the show when it comes to guilt. What I see out in the world is that victims feel devastating guilt and perpetrators feel none. Surely if God were in charge of guilt, we’d see another dynamic, no?

(2) I think the capacity to feel guilt is first and foremost a matter of biology–some simply do not experience guilt, or experience only very diminished guilt.

(3) Guilt is taught and learned, by people. Guilt serves a vital purpose, but it can be manipulated to serve nearly *any* purpose. That is, different cultures use guilt to meet wildly divergent ends.

For reasons of my own I feel this statement is true for me as well (and I’m not a sociopath):

“I don’t have the inner sense that God is unhappy with me, that I’m unworthy, or that I need divine forgiveness.”

Yep. That’s about right.

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By: Cameron N. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531424 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 16:25:33 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531424 I don’t know if this is an error or intentional change in format, but this article is fully displayed on the main page. Previously you had to click through and it was easier to see recent prior posts.

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By: J Town https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531423 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:58:46 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531423 @21 – What, then, would you consider a reliable indicator of wrongdoing, if I may ask? It isn’t just about societal expectations, though that certainly plays a part. And reading the OP and thinking about the scriptures, I think the lack of ability to feel that one has indeed sinned would be quite a stumbling block for someone in seeking to apply the scriptures to themselves, and feeling an acceptance of and gratitude for the atonement of Christ. I’m not asserting that Rosalynde doesn’t feel that way, perhaps she does, but I have a difficult time understanding how, given her statements above.

“I don’t have the inner sense that God is unhappy with me, that I’m unworthy, or that I need divine forgiveness”.

There are several parts to that statement. For the first part, I don’t think God is necessarily unhappy with us all the time. We’re fallible, we struggle, He understands. For the second part, unworthiness is likewise something that I don’t think necessarily persists as a perpetual state for everyone (although perhaps King Benjamin disagrees with me). But the third part, the lack of feeling a need divine forgiveness strikes me as dangerous. I may not have done anything terrible in the last hour, there may be no horrible, grievous sins weighing on my spirit right this minute, but the need for divine forgiveness is ever-present. We rely upon it, whether we immediately recognize it or not.

I am not trying to adopt a condemnatory tone here, because I don’t believe Rosalynde has done anything wrong, per se. I simply am concerned about such an outlook in general. Perhaps it works for her, and I like to extend the benefit of the doubt. But it seems to me, generally, an awfully dangerous road to travel and not one I would recommend.

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By: J Lawrence https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531422 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:16:39 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531422 Guilt is an unreliable indicator of wrongdoing. It has more to do with upsetting social expectations than actual sin. If I were taught my whole life that eating ice cream is a sin, I would feel guilty the first time I ate ice cream.

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By: Josh Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531420 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 01:24:50 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531420 Mike Maxwell (#17):

I’m going to help you out just this once. Here’s a free edit for you.

“I worry about people [who commit terrible acts against others] and claim an absence of guilt or shame.”

There you go.

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By: Dan E. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531419 Mon, 13 Apr 2015 01:11:42 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531419 Frog (15),

The mighty change of heart is experienced differently by different people. The same Book of Mormon that discusses the mighty change of heart in Alma 5 also claims that a vast number of Lamanites were baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost and they “knew it not” (3 Ne 9:20).
I can’t relate to Rosalynde’s perspective, but I would guess that at least half the people I go to Church with every Sunday are way more like Rosalynde than me, and they serve wonderfully with very little drama. Again, I can’t relate, but that’s not an indicator of anything wrong with either them or me.

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By: Kristine https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531418 Sun, 12 Apr 2015 15:57:56 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531418 That’s awfully harsh, Mike. It seems to me that it is perfectly possible to have a conscience and a moral compass without feeling the kind of guilt and shame Rosalynde is describing. And “seeking our own personal bliss” is hardly the only alternative to shame-derived “virtue.” (Incidentally, Rosalynde wrote a dissertation on conscience, so she of all people would know what that’s about.)

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By: Mike Maxwell https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531417 Sun, 12 Apr 2015 14:50:54 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531417 I worry about people who claim an absence of guilt and shame. Those feelings are most human’s greatest motivators for virtue. Knowing that someone is watching us and desiring their approval connects and aligns us with our fellows and the infinite. Simply seeking our own personal bliss in the absence of our God, our fellows, and our conscience’ judgement? The term sociopathic comes to mind. I’ll take the guilt and shame, and the reward in overcoming.

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By: p https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/04/varieties-of-grace/#comment-531416 Sun, 12 Apr 2015 01:38:20 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=33211#comment-531416 Thanks, Rosalynde. I, too, believe the body is the soul.

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